New contract by...?
06-27-2023, 05:50 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
Truth.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
Even decades later, a certain NC member that will "drink free for life" defends some of the most indefensible, absolute turds that he and others before him "negotiated".
For example, he was recently explaining the "benefits" of DTC on one of the bookface pages.
06-27-2023, 05:56 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Position: Left
Posts: 1,260
The Toms are out pushing for lower expectations.
06-27-2023, 06:17 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 766
Yup......
Even decades later, a certain NC member that will "drink free for life" defends some of the most indefensible, absolute turds that he and others before him "negotiated".
For example, he was recently explaining the "benefits" of DTC on one of the bookface pages.
Even decades later, a certain NC member that will "drink free for life" defends some of the most indefensible, absolute turds that he and others before him "negotiated".
For example, he was recently explaining the "benefits" of DTC on one of the bookface pages.
06-27-2023, 06:28 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,920
I agree with this. But, then again, I'm a quality of life guy -- some people would probably say to the extreme. In that sense, though I'm Gen X, my values with respect to the above are probably much closer to what you decribe as "kids these days."
It would take A LOT more money in terms of career compensation to get me to choose our regional airline lifestyle as a career if I were starting out today over the lifestyles that are available at places with WB's and earlier upgrades. Overall, at SWA we make less, upgrade later, and have worse schedules than the Big 3, FedEx, and UPS. For example, despite what RJS and FlyGuy say, 4-leg days are not uncommon, and five- and six-leg days do occur.
It would take A LOT more money in terms of career compensation to get me to choose our regional airline lifestyle as a career if I were starting out today over the lifestyles that are available at places with WB's and earlier upgrades. Overall, at SWA we make less, upgrade later, and have worse schedules than the Big 3, FedEx, and UPS. For example, despite what RJS and FlyGuy say, 4-leg days are not uncommon, and five- and six-leg days do occur.
06-27-2023, 06:51 PM
#25
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,234
Truth.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
06-27-2023, 07:53 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 989
Truth.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
IDGAF about swapa. I care about the value of the career of every pilot here. If that goal happens to align with SWAPA, so be it.
06-27-2023, 09:48 PM
#27
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,798
I agree with this. But, then again, I'm a quality of life guy -- some people would probably say to the extreme. In that sense, though I'm Gen X, my values with respect to the above are probably much closer to what you decribe as "kids these days."
It would take A LOT more money in terms of career compensation to get me to choose our regional airline lifestyle as a career if I were starting out today over the lifestyles that are available at places with WB's and earlier upgrades. Overall, at SWA we make less, upgrade later, and have worse schedules than the Big 3, FedEx, and UPS. For example, despite what RJS and FlyGuy say, 4-leg days are not uncommon, and five- and six-leg days do occur.
It would take A LOT more money in terms of career compensation to get me to choose our regional airline lifestyle as a career if I were starting out today over the lifestyles that are available at places with WB's and earlier upgrades. Overall, at SWA we make less, upgrade later, and have worse schedules than the Big 3, FedEx, and UPS. For example, despite what RJS and FlyGuy say, 4-leg days are not uncommon, and five- and six-leg days do occur.
06-28-2023, 02:57 AM
#28
Spikes the Koolaid
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 737
Posts: 403
Since I've been here, every TA and major issue to vote on has been accompanied by an enormous sales job from SWAPA, up to an including TA2 from last cycle. The coup de grâce on that one was our former union president essentially guaranteeing that it would pass by explaining, "I'm not telling anyone how to vote. But I'm voting yes." That's the guy who many here still lionize and who ushered in the substandard contract we now work under.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
Whenever the TA comes, it will be difficult for SWAPA BOD members, exec's, and staff, many whom have put years into crafting the TA to not look upon it, at least subconsciously, as their baby. That always has and will make them defensive and touchy in response to criticism of the brain child they have birthed. It has been like that every single time regardless of how "different" SWAPA claims to be.
There always has been a ginormous wave of, "What? You don't trust SWAPA?", from the membership in response to any questioning or criticism of whatever the agreement is in question. Age 65 was like that. The -800 SL for no additional pay was like that. The SL for FAR 117 was like that. And every TA has been like that.
We here on the forums (and social media in general) have made huge strides in beginning to recognize and call out examples of the "exceptionalism" cult at SWA, but we often forget to turn the mirror on ourselves (I.e.: swapa).
Swapa suffers from the same deep indoctrination of exceptionalism that has pervaded SWA for the past 52+ years. As many have eluded, there are those of us who, some unwittingly and some sycophantically, talk about the things that make swa and swapa unique to a fault.
You can see it in the relatively innocent examples of berating of people who criticize SWAPA, the defense of using TFP, the building up of our work flexibility, and the yearly W2 thread. You can also see it in the more nefarious sea-gulling (not a word?) of the Toms on, again, TFP, DTC, SWAPA 2.0, sick and disability, and our insurance options.
I try not to subscribe to any of that (and am thus that labeled as a Debbie downer, never-happy, etc.). In order for us to grow as a union and as a pilot group, we HAVE to be willing to look in the mirror and reasses.
Swapa has made great strides since the days of TA1 and earlier, but Lew isn't wrong that many players are still in the game. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because people can and do change, and there's certainly marked progress, but we have to continuously go back and assess how people and the union as a whole are doing.
Look at the people defending the TFP-block hour conversion change out there as an example. At what point do we say "you know, I thought it was always in our benefit, but now given that the company can just arbitrarily decide to change the number, is it really worth it?" At a certain point, the transparency of a simple method of comparison might well be worth it. It's certainly worth the discussion.
To throw out a bunch of other clichés: trust but verify, "that's the way we've always done it", ABCD->, etc.
SWAPA may have gone from 1.0-2.0 on the last TA but it's far from perfect. I know there are those who are trying to change it from within, but we as a pilot group need to constantly keep the pressure on to adapt to a changing company and environment.
How many versions of software do you know of that stop at v2.0?
06-28-2023, 03:15 AM
#29
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
The argument for TFP is that it benefits the pilots on longer flights. BS. It obfuscates what we are actually paid and makes it difficult to compare our pay against our colleagues at OAL. We could easily retain the benefits of TFP on longer flights by adding a leg length multiplier if that’s what they want to do, but time is long past for us to join the real world of dollars per hour and send the Schrute Bucks to the dustbin of airline history.
06-28-2023, 04:05 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,778
The argument for TFP is that it benefits the pilots on longer flights. BS. It obfuscates what we are actually paid and makes it difficult to compare our pay against our colleagues at OAL. We could easily retain the benefits of TFP on longer flights by adding a leg length multiplier if that’s what they want to do, but time is long past for us to join the real world of dollars per hour and send the Schrute Bucks to the dustbin of airline history.
In addition dont mention that the data was collected before what I think is about 2500-3000 pilots had a chance to submit data so 20%-30% of the pilot group is not represented. Again, when this subject is broached it always comes back with what I perceive as a bit of a "how dare you suggest we waiver from the path" or "how dare you question the process".
Scary to think we are guided by data that is this old and the SWAPA exceptionalism is still fully there, perhaps better hidden until you dig deeper though. I will say I have faith in Casey, at least for now and I think they are generally doing a good job, even if I think they need to reevaluate some sections. Time will tell.
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