cr700

Don't think I would include SWA in with UAL/DL or Fedex. Not the same playing field.

flyguy81

I live in Denver. Not moving and commuting sucks. So it's SWA or UAL with Fedex having the edge over DL in last place. If I were shopping airlines today, it'd be UAL by a wide margin and SWA would get an app tossed in just in case UAL never called. 8 years ago the market was very different and career path in DEN at SWA/UAL gave SWA the edge....so I stayed. UAL leapfrogged in front after Rona and SWA mgt f'd the Rona recovery.

flyguy81

You can't compare a new AIP that hasn't even made it to TA to another airline's amendable 2016 contract. It's apples and oranges. Yeah, even with the old rates, a career at AA outearns a SWA pilot just due to the multi-fleet airline skewing seniority. You'll also likely work more days a year as a NB pilot than I will, and I'll work harder at work than you will. Our rates will come up significantly with a new CBA along with NEC and other incidentals. I'd rather do a 3 leg day than a 5 day trip where you waste a day sitting in a hotel. I'm perfectly happy driving to work and spending half the month off on RSV vs commuting to 12 off. If you're happy, that's all that matters....I'm just saying for me....AA is hot garbage I wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. I'm glad there's options these days....had a 2 yr SKW CA on the jumpseat last week with 2 interviews already.

Retirements are great and all until the gov't decides to raise the retirement age and slow everything down. You can't bank on new planes or payrates until you're sitting in it and the cash is in your account.

cr700

Well, put like that, you make perfect sense. Commuting is not desirable.

ZapBrannigan

Out of curiosity, what’s the monthly cap at AA?

Its relevant because there is no cap on straight-pay at Southwest. So if we concede that SWA pilots can do as well, or better than other airlines IF they’re really willing to bust their hump for it, then the absence of a cap has to be included in the arithmetic.

I admit I wasn’t a fan when I got here. To me, the cap that other airlines had forced the company to build more lines, upgrade more captains etc…

Now having been here for a while and sipped the Kool Aid from time to time, I actually like it.
If the washing machine goes tango uniform, or if we need to replace a car, or we want to splurge on a big vacation, I can fly right up to the FAR limit for a month or two and pay for those things.

If I want to just coast and fly my line, or try to give away my line (it can happen… in February… maybe) I can do that too. The ability to flex up or down is an economic advantage for SWA pilots … IF you’re willing to sacrifice time off to take advantage of it.

All that said, comparing AA’s AIP rates to SWA’s current rates is kind of apples to oranges right now. At best, you could compare AA current 737, 757, A320, A321 rates to SWA current rates.

Personally, I don’t like being more than about 2 or 3 time zones from home and long haul international is a perpetual redeye. So as cool as those wide body airplanes are, they would never be for me anyway.

I was a USAir guy until 9/11 so not a day goes by that I don’t wonder what life would be like for me had I gone back after the furloughs… so please don’t think I’m speaking negatively about my friends at AA. If you’re comparing the two companies though, you have to look at a lot more than simply rates of pay and average line values. AA might still come out ahead, but let’s be intellectually honest about the comparison.

e6bpilot

I am not a fanboy of any airline, but this is an apples to orangutans comparison. You are comparing a new AIP against an old contract and two wildly different airlines with the ways that pay is incentivized and crews are utilized.
We are all working, for the most part, where we are going to be working in 10 years. Comparing mine vs yours is a fun academic exercise, but nobody's mind will be changed.
I work at SWA and I am bound and determined to maximize the tools at my disposal to increase my quality of life first and pay second. So far, so good. I don't know what I don't know about other places, and I find that most guys tend to blow smoke when they talk about how great their airline is, so I take it all with a grain of salt.

RJSAviator76

I was always told that counting chickens before they're hatched is bad plan. I don't know... maybe it's yet another concept a tad foreign to millennials or Gen Z'ers.

First off, AIP hasn't even been officially TA'd, hence sent to membership for ratification. So I'd say that's kinda premature. Then, you're comparing one group with a new contract with another group still in negotiations working under the old contract, which doesn't make much statistical sense in any meaningful long term. I get it... some folks think math is racist. Would that make statistics fascist?? 🤪

300k was achievable as an FO with working understanding of our contract and living in base. Captain? Just a tad more.... and that's the old contract. Who knows what the new one will bring, but I sure won't count my chickens until we have ratified something.

Now, wanna talk about how many days you get to spend at home on reserve.... then you'll make me jealous. Paycheck? You'll make me laugh.

Cyio

Like others have said, this is sort of an unfair comparison at least in terms of the numbers you used. In addition, I think you are looking at things with too broad of scope because there are details that make decisions harder than simply numb crunching career earnings.

As an example, I live in PHX and as of now or for the foreseeable future, we are not moving and if we did, who knows where or if there would be a base. So for arguments sake, I am staying in AZ so that leaves me SWA and AA. While you say you can upgrade at AA in 3 years, I think those numbers are for current pilots, but with the huge amount of hiring I think that wave has passed. For arguments sake though, let's say you are correct, I can promise you that pilots in AZ are not upgrading at AA in 3 years. Sure the current number, what like 18 years or something is/will come down as the AW pilots start retiring, it is still going to be senior.

Long story short, if I just went with the numbers you posted I would have to commute for the foreseeable future to get to the CA rates you mention. I can make, in theory at least on the old contract north of 200K as a 3-5 year FO with lines that have me home 17-18 days a month, assuming I am not picking up and not having any 5 day runs, again unless self inflicted. So, in closing on this part, I think for someone that doesn't want to commute to an upgrade, you have to look at the reality of the situation in its entirety, not just potential dollars earned.

I do occasionally get the WB itch, but AA isnt really the place to get that, at least not compared to UA/DL and I am not going to commute for a WB seat. So for me at least, I am staying at WN and riding this pony until it quits or I am forced to leave. I have friends at AA like we all do and the ones hired there last year or the year before are looking VERY good for their careers, however new hires now will not see that seniority progression from what I am told and as a 40+ year old, I dont have the time to wait it out.

at6d

I can tell you right now that SWA upgraded PHX guys at 7.5 years and he has a blank line with PM Sunday starts and 15 days off (and hasn’t done OE yet).

Cyio

Well that is kind of my point, in that sure AA may have a quick upgrade, where that upgrade happens is the key point. I have a feeling someone coming to SWA at most of our bases will upgrade without commuting in the same time they would at AA assuming they didn't commute either.

In my opinion, the only thing AA has going for it is the international stuff, some WB and travel benefits and that is important to some, just not as much to me. I think any of the smaller things are tit for tat and will get improved in our new contracts.