Example rates required to match DL
05-16-2023, 07:26 AM
#81
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 74
Thanks
What I don’t understand is why you have become so extraordinarily triggered by the fact that I made one post explaining that, “for 'fun',” I’d modeled the rates that would be required to achieve a 30% premium on Delta’s ten-year career compensation. I explicitly stated in that post, "I'm posting this just to give us an idea of how far behind we are in career compensation."
And here, once again, you’re attempting to beat on an argument I didn’t make. You’ve gone to war against a position that sprung up out of your own imagination and are trying to frame it as if you're attacking something I've espoused.
If you’re doing that on purpose, it’s dishonest.
If you don’t realize you’re doing it, then maybe take a step back and reflect on what you’re doing and what your motivations for doing so might be.
I don’t know what SWAPA is demanding in mediation. I’m also not sure that you know what they’re aiming for despite your assertions here.
First, given your apparent bent toward straw man arguments and confirmation bias, it could be that you heard only what you thought you wanted to hear when you were told whatever it was you were told. Who knows?
Beyond that, even if you’re communicating what you were told with 100% fidelity whatever some rep told you about what they might be insisting on in mediation, it doesn’t mean that what you were told is necessarily true. It could be that at this point, for whatever reason, they don’t want people knowing what their position is. It could be they are demanding more than most of us think is possible and they don’t want to make it public yet in case they’re unable to achieve it. Maybe they’re actually only seeking something much less than any of us would guess. Who knows?
It could be that you’re already a known quantity to SWAPA and they intentionally seeded you with misinformation. Who knows?
It could be that you're working for the company in some capacity and, for whatever reason, are intentionally trying to mislead us. Who knows?
Even if what you were told is entirely true right now and you have also communicated whatever you were told entirely accurately here on APC, it doesn’t mean that it might not change at some point in the future if, for example, the membership makes clear by polling or by voting down TA1 (when it arrives) that SWAPA’s demands were insufficient. Who knows?
And to that point, raising awareness within the pilot group around where SWAPA pilots stand relative to career compensation available at other airlines may ultimately impact, now or at some future point, what SWAPA demands at the bargaining table if a large enough portion of the pilot group becomes convicted that their career compensation is inadequate in light of our deficit with respect to what other airline pilots earn at various points in their career timelines.
More than one pilot in our group has told me that they had no real idea where we stacked up to other airline pilots from the perspective of career compensation before I began posting these charts. Several have expressed to me that they never even considered evaluating our compensation on the basis of any metric besides simple rates. Many have informed me that seeing the charts I've published has been eye-opening. IOW, they have the potential to make a difference.
Delta's total rate raise after DOS + 3 years will be about 34%.
Who knows what the company will agree to or not? Tell us - exactly what is the threshold beyond which the company will not agree to any additional raise? How did you arrive at the cutoff you calculated? So, it's not 130%. What is it exactly?
And you have to understand that, for YEARS, most of the pilot group believed that the company would NEVER agree to a B-Fund and that they'd NEVER agree to retro. And yet, voila, we now have a B-Fund and we got some retro. Company apologists made the same sorts of defeatist arguments you're making all over this thread. And they were wrong.
If faced with the credible threat of a legal strike, the company may agree to more than you imagine. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they'll lock us out and hire several thousand scab pilots. Is that realistic?
What if SWAPA called a legal strike after a release to self help because the company wouldn't agree to various provisions or stipulations within SWAPA's set of demands? Would you cross the line and work for the company if you felt SWAPA's demands were too unrealistic or too onerous?
And you also seem to imply that you know for a fact what would cause Congress to intervene in a SWAPA strike even though Congress has never intervened in an airline strike before. Beyond that, you even seem to think you know what the terms of a congressional intervention in a SWAPA strike will look like. How do you know? What makes you so confident?
Some more history for you: for greater than thirty years, irrefutable evidence has existed that proves the President cannot shut down a strike under the RLA. He/she can only unilaterally delay it for a maximum of 60 days by establishing a PEB. Yet, here at SWA, a union official imbued with some credibility via their background reportedly swore up and down that the RLA path for building leverage was pointless because the President would just permanently shut down any union that happened to gain a release from mediation. Therefore, for more than two decades, in no small part because of this message reverberating out through the pilot group there was no real impetus to pursue leverage under the RLA. Over all those years, apparently no one fact-checked that "credible" person. Even in the last 12 months, as evidence of that legacy, at least one SWAPA official continued to state that the President could shut down a strike. They've finally corrected their view, backed away from that position, and have made clear that's not the case. But it took decades for our pilot group to begin to embrace the RLA path - all because of uninformed, overconfident baloney.
You stating with such confidence and zero facts to back it up what you are so sure Congress will do is the same sort of nonsense that has kept this pilot group in lagging contracts for the last several decades.
Really? I've hijacked "every thread on here"? Isn't that more than a bit of a sweeping generalization?
What exactly is my "repeating" message "that is very far from happening"?
What I don’t understand is why you have become so extraordinarily triggered by the fact that I made one post explaining that, “for 'fun',” I’d modeled the rates that would be required to achieve a 30% premium on Delta’s ten-year career compensation. I explicitly stated in that post, "I'm posting this just to give us an idea of how far behind we are in career compensation."
And here, once again, you’re attempting to beat on an argument I didn’t make. You’ve gone to war against a position that sprung up out of your own imagination and are trying to frame it as if you're attacking something I've espoused.
If you’re doing that on purpose, it’s dishonest.
If you don’t realize you’re doing it, then maybe take a step back and reflect on what you’re doing and what your motivations for doing so might be.
I don’t know what SWAPA is demanding in mediation. I’m also not sure that you know what they’re aiming for despite your assertions here.
First, given your apparent bent toward straw man arguments and confirmation bias, it could be that you heard only what you thought you wanted to hear when you were told whatever it was you were told. Who knows?
Beyond that, even if you’re communicating what you were told with 100% fidelity whatever some rep told you about what they might be insisting on in mediation, it doesn’t mean that what you were told is necessarily true. It could be that at this point, for whatever reason, they don’t want people knowing what their position is. It could be they are demanding more than most of us think is possible and they don’t want to make it public yet in case they’re unable to achieve it. Maybe they’re actually only seeking something much less than any of us would guess. Who knows?
It could be that you’re already a known quantity to SWAPA and they intentionally seeded you with misinformation. Who knows?
It could be that you're working for the company in some capacity and, for whatever reason, are intentionally trying to mislead us. Who knows?
Even if what you were told is entirely true right now and you have also communicated whatever you were told entirely accurately here on APC, it doesn’t mean that it might not change at some point in the future if, for example, the membership makes clear by polling or by voting down TA1 (when it arrives) that SWAPA’s demands were insufficient. Who knows?
And to that point, raising awareness within the pilot group around where SWAPA pilots stand relative to career compensation available at other airlines may ultimately impact, now or at some future point, what SWAPA demands at the bargaining table if a large enough portion of the pilot group becomes convicted that their career compensation is inadequate in light of our deficit with respect to what other airline pilots earn at various points in their career timelines.
More than one pilot in our group has told me that they had no real idea where we stacked up to other airline pilots from the perspective of career compensation before I began posting these charts. Several have expressed to me that they never even considered evaluating our compensation on the basis of any metric besides simple rates. Many have informed me that seeing the charts I've published has been eye-opening. IOW, they have the potential to make a difference.
Delta's total rate raise after DOS + 3 years will be about 34%.
Who knows what the company will agree to or not? Tell us - exactly what is the threshold beyond which the company will not agree to any additional raise? How did you arrive at the cutoff you calculated? So, it's not 130%. What is it exactly?
And you have to understand that, for YEARS, most of the pilot group believed that the company would NEVER agree to a B-Fund and that they'd NEVER agree to retro. And yet, voila, we now have a B-Fund and we got some retro. Company apologists made the same sorts of defeatist arguments you're making all over this thread. And they were wrong.
If faced with the credible threat of a legal strike, the company may agree to more than you imagine. Or maybe they won't. Maybe they'll lock us out and hire several thousand scab pilots. Is that realistic?
What if SWAPA called a legal strike after a release to self help because the company wouldn't agree to various provisions or stipulations within SWAPA's set of demands? Would you cross the line and work for the company if you felt SWAPA's demands were too unrealistic or too onerous?
And you also seem to imply that you know for a fact what would cause Congress to intervene in a SWAPA strike even though Congress has never intervened in an airline strike before. Beyond that, you even seem to think you know what the terms of a congressional intervention in a SWAPA strike will look like. How do you know? What makes you so confident?
Some more history for you: for greater than thirty years, irrefutable evidence has existed that proves the President cannot shut down a strike under the RLA. He/she can only unilaterally delay it for a maximum of 60 days by establishing a PEB. Yet, here at SWA, a union official imbued with some credibility via their background reportedly swore up and down that the RLA path for building leverage was pointless because the President would just permanently shut down any union that happened to gain a release from mediation. Therefore, for more than two decades, in no small part because of this message reverberating out through the pilot group there was no real impetus to pursue leverage under the RLA. Over all those years, apparently no one fact-checked that "credible" person. Even in the last 12 months, as evidence of that legacy, at least one SWAPA official continued to state that the President could shut down a strike. They've finally corrected their view, backed away from that position, and have made clear that's not the case. But it took decades for our pilot group to begin to embrace the RLA path - all because of uninformed, overconfident baloney.
You stating with such confidence and zero facts to back it up what you are so sure Congress will do is the same sort of nonsense that has kept this pilot group in lagging contracts for the last several decades.
Really? I've hijacked "every thread on here"? Isn't that more than a bit of a sweeping generalization?
What exactly is my "repeating" message "that is very far from happening"?
05-16-2023, 08:07 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
TL, DR.. after the part you created multiple straw men while accusing me of doing the same. Best of luck in your attempt at making every post about your graphs. People have seen them. No need for a new one each week is my advice. Can't wait to get $600/tfp.. gonna be sweet.
What I don’t understand is why you have become so extraordinarily triggered by the fact that I made one post explaining that, “for 'fun',” I’d modeled the rates that would be required to achieve a 30% premium on Delta’s ten-year career compensation. I explicitly stated in that post, "I'm posting this just to give us an idea of how far behind we are in career compensation."
And here, once again, you’re attempting to beat on an argument I didn’t make. You’ve gone to war against a position that sprung up out of your own imagination and are trying to frame it as if you're attacking something I've espoused.
If you’re doing that on purpose, it’s dishonest.
If you don’t realize you’re doing it, then maybe take a step back and reflect on what you’re doing and what your motivations for doing so might be.
And here, once again, you’re attempting to beat on an argument I didn’t make. You’ve gone to war against a position that sprung up out of your own imagination and are trying to frame it as if you're attacking something I've espoused.
If you’re doing that on purpose, it’s dishonest.
If you don’t realize you’re doing it, then maybe take a step back and reflect on what you’re doing and what your motivations for doing so might be.
05-16-2023, 09:07 AM
#83
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,857
... If you've used 50 hours or less in each to the two preceding sick leave years, no note is required at all, no matter how much you use. If you've used at least 100 hours in one shot, such as a surgery or other major illness, provide a note, and none of that time counts either.
We do have a rather onerous "good faith basis" system where the Company call call you if they have reason to believe you're not really sick, but if they send you to the Dr, they pay for it, and the sick call doesn't count towards the above limits. They have to call you within 3 days of the start of the event, and they have to tell you exactly why. If you used 50 or less hours in the preceding sick leave year, they can't do that at all.
We do have a rather onerous "good faith basis" system where the Company call call you if they have reason to believe you're not really sick, but if they send you to the Dr, they pay for it, and the sick call doesn't count towards the above limits. They have to call you within 3 days of the start of the event, and they have to tell you exactly why. If you used 50 or less hours in the preceding sick leave year, they can't do that at all.
Also, Genuine question: what about Disability at WN? Do you have STD? I believe at least one major airline with a "sick bank" style system does not have any STD, leaving you without any earnings until transitioning to LTD at 6 months - which if you have accrued a large sick bank may balance out. Is that an issue at WN? At DL, we immediately transition to STD upon exhaustion of remaining sick hours. STD pays 50% of the average of your highest 12 consecutive bid periods out of the previous 36 (which is why some pilots try to have a 'big year' once out of every 3 years). Also, the new contract provides a floor for New Hires who may have an unfortunate event before having much earnings.
Question for Lewbronski, just for understanding of Apples/apples comparison of your 30% more block hours number. What number are you using for average block hours per month across all active pilots at WN (including SLI/CPO/SWAPA/Project pilots/etc)?
05-16-2023, 10:10 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
2018 is currently the latest data published for Delta by the Airline Data Project. So, I compared SWA's 2018 "Block Hours Per Employee Per Month - Pilots & Co-Pilots (note: Includes Flight Engineers where applicable)" which was 53.1 block hours to the same 2018 figure for Delta, which was 40.6 block hours. The difference is 30.8%.
05-16-2023, 10:36 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,906
Thus if you've used 50 or less in the last 2 sick leave years, no GFB and no note over 120.
05-16-2023, 11:13 AM
#86
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,857
The data I'm using comes from MIT's Airline Data Project. I footnoted that on the chart where I referred to Delta pilots flying 30% more block hours, on average, than SWA pilots. But it may have been too small to read if viewed on a mobile device. Here is exactly what the footnote said: "Using latest data available (2018) for both SWA and Delta Airlines from the "Airline Data Project." Massachusetts Institute of Technology Global Airline Industry Program, http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html".
2018 is currently the latest data published for Delta by the Airline Data Project. So, I compared SWA's 2018 "Block Hours Per Employee Per Month - Pilots & Co-Pilots (note: Includes Flight Engineers where applicable)" which was 53.1 block hours to the same 2018 figure for Delta, which was 40.6 block hours. The difference is 30.8%.
2018 is currently the latest data published for Delta by the Airline Data Project. So, I compared SWA's 2018 "Block Hours Per Employee Per Month - Pilots & Co-Pilots (note: Includes Flight Engineers where applicable)" which was 53.1 block hours to the same 2018 figure for Delta, which was 40.6 block hours. The difference is 30.8%.
Hey Fangs, two different things. 50 hours or less in the previous year to get out of GFB. 50 hours or less in the preceding two years exempts you from any QHCP note at all no matter how much sick time you use (no 120 hour limit).
Thus if you've used 50 or less in the last 2 sick leave years, no GFB and no note over 120.
Thus if you've used 50 or less in the last 2 sick leave years, no GFB and no note over 120.
05-16-2023, 11:41 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Ok, thanks, I did miss the small/fine print for the infamous MIT study. FYI, the figure I have seen at DL is much, much closer to SWA's 53.1 than stated in the MIT study. I can't see deep enough into the methodology of the MIT study to know if that is apples/apples with each figure. But I submit that the MIT study is off, at least on this metric. Maybe a difference in the figure I have seen is controlling for lower productivity SLI/CPO? Or zero productivity Sick/disability pilots? I dunno. There are some inefficiencies at DL for multiple aircraft types (and associated training churn). Just FYI
05-16-2023, 12:19 PM
#89
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 84
TL, DR.. after the part you created multiple straw men while accusing me of doing the same. Best of luck in your attempt at making every post about your graphs. People have seen them. No need for a new one each week is my advice. Can't wait to get $600/tfp.. gonna be sweet.
A lot of this information is useful to many of us. Not everyone has the time nor the “know how” in dissecting this information.
As for the TFP figures, I’ll respectfully submit, that it is not just about TFP numbers. It’s a total compensation package that would enable and allow SWA to hire the best talent going forward. Wide bodies at our competitors are a real thing. Young bloods coming into this side of the business are at the very least, curious about flying these giants to fancy and far away places. I know I would!!
Our compensation has to be such that it entices new talent to choose flying a narrow body, possibly for the rest of their careers! Today, that’s going to take more than culture talk or will never furlough talk. It will probably also take more than industry leading “narrow body” compensation. Candidates will wonder, “I could make far more than any narrow body pay at XYZ airline!” I know I would…
Like our Union president stated in his latest podcast, “we’re not asking for the moon just for the sake of asking for the moon.” There could be real consequences or rewards, depending on the outcome.
05-16-2023, 12:29 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
What are the most current figures from the ALPA National Economic and Financial Analysis group for block time at Delta and SWA? What specifically about the MIT data would make the ALPA National Economic and Financial Analysis group laugh someone out of the room?
You make a statement like that which may or may not be true but don’t provide any specific, credible information or references as to why it is the case. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying, not knowing you from Adam, what you’re saying could simply be nothing more than your opinion based on rumors you’ve heard.
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