Southwoke
04-04-2023, 06:22 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2020
Posts: 1,897
There's undoubtedly a problem at the airline. Between the open mic incidents disparaging homosexuals, the "rolling coal" comment, FAs writing up pilots for behavior at hotels, the website and billboard. There's a segment of pilots that can't wrap their head around anybody that doesn't look or act just like they do.
It's no wonder the company wants to do DEI training... there's, what 60,000 employees? There will always be differences in groups that large. You can't expect everyone to share your world view.
This is a cultural problem that should be addressed in hiring and will likely only be solved by a generational shift.
Until then, it's best to just keep politics and religion out of the cockpit, and be careful what you say in mixed company. You don't know what the other persons beliefs are, what their sexual orientation is, or even the ethnicity of their family members. If something is shoved in your face that you don't like, ignore it and move on or change the subject. Be the adult in the room.
Look I get it. The pendulum swings too far to the left and right sometimes and maybe it's swinging a little far left right now. But we all have to work together, so let's just try and ignore the noise from the company and talk about things that we can all agree on regardless of our politics, like BBQ, vacations, cars, or even the contract. Show a little empathy or just walk away if you don't like the conversation.
This is going to get harder before it gets easier. We're on the eve of yet another election cycle that is likely to be contentious and noisy. Everybody will have their opinions and want to share them.
To which your answer should be changing the subject to more important stuff like,... "so you ever use one of them Big Green Eggs?" or, "Is that Fiat Spider just a Miata with Fiat badging?"
It's no wonder the company wants to do DEI training... there's, what 60,000 employees? There will always be differences in groups that large. You can't expect everyone to share your world view.
This is a cultural problem that should be addressed in hiring and will likely only be solved by a generational shift.
Until then, it's best to just keep politics and religion out of the cockpit, and be careful what you say in mixed company. You don't know what the other persons beliefs are, what their sexual orientation is, or even the ethnicity of their family members. If something is shoved in your face that you don't like, ignore it and move on or change the subject. Be the adult in the room.
Look I get it. The pendulum swings too far to the left and right sometimes and maybe it's swinging a little far left right now. But we all have to work together, so let's just try and ignore the noise from the company and talk about things that we can all agree on regardless of our politics, like BBQ, vacations, cars, or even the contract. Show a little empathy or just walk away if you don't like the conversation.
This is going to get harder before it gets easier. We're on the eve of yet another election cycle that is likely to be contentious and noisy. Everybody will have their opinions and want to share them.
To which your answer should be changing the subject to more important stuff like,... "so you ever use one of them Big Green Eggs?" or, "Is that Fiat Spider just a Miata with Fiat badging?"
04-04-2023, 08:18 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
For most of my time here at SW, with very few exceptions, everyone got along, respected one another and we all pulled on the same rope to keep the place running. It was, overall, a pleasant place to work.
I treat all of my co workers well, and have never had any personal issues in the past, even with some well known "problem children" that others have had issues with, regardless of their pronouns, religion, race, lifestyle choices etc.
All I care about is that my co workers do their jobs, and treat each other and our customers right.
I always take care of my crew, avoid discussing politics, religion and any other arguments, like the plague at work as well as in my social life. Like others have said, hobbies, family etc. are far more pleasant topics to discuss at work than the above. It is the rare occasion that I can't find some kind of common ground to discuss with my co workers.
In the last year or so, I've noticed a marked increase in completely unwarranted passive (and not so passive) hostility towards me from the some folks that, apparently, feel empowered by this DEI movement to the point that they feel it's perfectly OK to disrespect a co worker for no reason other, ironically, than they aren't "like" them. Cabin crew and even a pilot or 2 have engaged in this behavior.
If the shoe was on other foot, and I'd said similar things to them (which will never and has never happened) I'd likely be disciplined, if not fired, under the DEI policies in place.
Conversely, I would never report this behavior, mainly because life is too long for that kind of drama, and I simply don't care enough about words to do so.
I also know, (second hand, thankfully), as do the perpetrators of this behavior, that the battle is lost before it starts in these situations.
The irony of the entire DEI movement is simply staggering.
Is it too late for VSP? Asking for a friend.....
Last edited by SlipKid; 04-04-2023 at 08:33 AM.
04-04-2023, 08:35 AM
#33
Spikes the Koolaid
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 737
Posts: 403
Amen brother.
For most of my time here at SW, with very few exceptions, everyone got along, respected one another and we all pulled on the same rope to keep the place running. It was, overall, a pleasant place to work.
I treat all of my co workers well, and have never had any personal issues in the past, even with some well known "problem children" that others have had issues with, regardless of their pronouns, religion, race, lifestyle choices etc.
All I care about is that my co workers do their jobs, and treat each other and our customers right.
For most of my time here at SW, with very few exceptions, everyone got along, respected one another and we all pulled on the same rope to keep the place running. It was, overall, a pleasant place to work.
I treat all of my co workers well, and have never had any personal issues in the past, even with some well known "problem children" that others have had issues with, regardless of their pronouns, religion, race, lifestyle choices etc.
All I care about is that my co workers do their jobs, and treat each other and our customers right.
Unfortunately, the minority is trying to do its darnedest to ruin it for the rest of us, which is resulting in more and more measures to get them pulling in the same direction as the rest of us.
Things I have personally witnessed: a captain soliciting sex from a flight attendant in exchange for buying breakfast, a captain telling a male flight attendant that his gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, a captain complaining to a new hire flight attendant who had just finished her first day on the line that "man, it's been a long time since I've seen a new hire flight attendant's breasts", homophobic slurs, complaining about Atlanta sucking because of "the blacks", complaining to flight attendants how there aren't any sexy room parties any more, and the list goes on and on, to say nothing of the constant calling women "sweetie", "honey", etc. That's directly to their faces, and also does not include the numerous 5am cockpit rants with the door open during boarding.
This training, and the increased crackdown, is for and because of them.
I don't get mad at DEI training when I see it in class or on a DL. Sure it's annoying, and the not-so-subtle pilot hating that goes on with it is offensive, but I simply don't let it get under my skin. I'm an adult and am capable of listening to boring workplace seminars on things that don't apply to me or are offensive to me without getting worked up.
I absolutely wish that some of the most easily offended ones would grow the hell up and get even the slightest more thick skin, but I also know that it's not happening in a vacuum, because of some of the absolutely horrific things I've heard and seen.
Treat it like the lessons-learned stuff like unstable approaches or flawed decision making that we get to learn about in DLs and CQT: it doesn't apply to me, and so the purpose of that training is to reinforce my good decision making and helps keep me honest.
The biggest action item that I channel my energy into after listening to those presentations is that we need separate hotels. For everybody's sake.
This kind of training isn't new, it's been happening and getting updated for the better part of 60 years. Just put those sections on mute if you really don't want to hear them.
04-04-2023, 09:50 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
Satire, when done correctly, is very effective. You can accomplish a lot through humor.
When done poorly, it is lame. This website didn't even make me crack a smile. I just rolled my eyes and moved on. It's just more of the same venom from the anti DEI crowd that somehow feels threatened and is sending our CEO and COO emails stating that this is a communist plot to destabilize the country.
The key to happiness in this job is to come to work, do a great job, drop the pack and go home. Rinse and repeat. Get paid twice a month. Do union stuff. That's it. Don't bring your politics, religion, or sex life to work. In the end, it's only going to cause you pain.
When done poorly, it is lame. This website didn't even make me crack a smile. I just rolled my eyes and moved on. It's just more of the same venom from the anti DEI crowd that somehow feels threatened and is sending our CEO and COO emails stating that this is a communist plot to destabilize the country.
The key to happiness in this job is to come to work, do a great job, drop the pack and go home. Rinse and repeat. Get paid twice a month. Do union stuff. That's it. Don't bring your politics, religion, or sex life to work. In the end, it's only going to cause you pain.
Last edited by Grumpyaviator; 04-04-2023 at 10:05 AM.
04-04-2023, 09:56 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,778
That's awesome that you're like that. Seriously. I try to act the same way, as I know the majority of us do.
Unfortunately, the minority is trying to do its darnedest to ruin it for the rest of us, which is resulting in more and more measures to get them pulling in the same direction as the rest of us.
Things I have personally witnessed: a captain soliciting sex from a flight attendant in exchange for buying breakfast, a captain telling a male flight attendant that his gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, a captain complaining to a new hire flight attendant who had just finished her first day on the line that "man, it's been a long time since I've seen a new hire flight attendant's breasts", homophobic slurs, complaining about Atlanta sucking because of "the blacks", complaining to flight attendants how there aren't any sexy room parties any more, and the list goes on and on, to say nothing of the constant calling women "sweetie", "honey", etc. That's directly to their faces, and also does not include the numerous 5am cockpit rants with the door open during boarding.
This training, and the increased crackdown, is for and because of them.
I don't get mad at DEI training when I see it in class or on a DL. Sure it's annoying, and the not-so-subtle pilot hating that goes on with it is offensive, but I simply don't let it get under my skin. I'm an adult and am capable of listening to boring workplace seminars on things that don't apply to me or are offensive to me without getting worked up.
I absolutely wish that some of the most easily offended ones would grow the hell up and get even the slightest more thick skin, but I also know that it's not happening in a vacuum, because of some of the absolutely horrific things I've heard and seen.
Treat it like the lessons-learned stuff like unstable approaches or flawed decision making that we get to learn about in DLs and CQT: it doesn't apply to me, and so the purpose of that training is to reinforce my good decision making and helps keep me honest.
The biggest action item that I channel my energy into after listening to those presentations is that we need separate hotels. For everybody's sake.
This kind of training isn't new, it's been happening and getting updated for the better part of 60 years. Just put those sections on mute if you really don't want to hear them.
Unfortunately, the minority is trying to do its darnedest to ruin it for the rest of us, which is resulting in more and more measures to get them pulling in the same direction as the rest of us.
Things I have personally witnessed: a captain soliciting sex from a flight attendant in exchange for buying breakfast, a captain telling a male flight attendant that his gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, a captain complaining to a new hire flight attendant who had just finished her first day on the line that "man, it's been a long time since I've seen a new hire flight attendant's breasts", homophobic slurs, complaining about Atlanta sucking because of "the blacks", complaining to flight attendants how there aren't any sexy room parties any more, and the list goes on and on, to say nothing of the constant calling women "sweetie", "honey", etc. That's directly to their faces, and also does not include the numerous 5am cockpit rants with the door open during boarding.
This training, and the increased crackdown, is for and because of them.
I don't get mad at DEI training when I see it in class or on a DL. Sure it's annoying, and the not-so-subtle pilot hating that goes on with it is offensive, but I simply don't let it get under my skin. I'm an adult and am capable of listening to boring workplace seminars on things that don't apply to me or are offensive to me without getting worked up.
I absolutely wish that some of the most easily offended ones would grow the hell up and get even the slightest more thick skin, but I also know that it's not happening in a vacuum, because of some of the absolutely horrific things I've heard and seen.
Treat it like the lessons-learned stuff like unstable approaches or flawed decision making that we get to learn about in DLs and CQT: it doesn't apply to me, and so the purpose of that training is to reinforce my good decision making and helps keep me honest.
The biggest action item that I channel my energy into after listening to those presentations is that we need separate hotels. For everybody's sake.
This kind of training isn't new, it's been happening and getting updated for the better part of 60 years. Just put those sections on mute if you really don't want to hear them.
Day one on the line during IOE and the lead comes up and says to me while I am getting the plane ready, "20 years ago I would pop out my breasts and give you a show, but you dont want to see that at my age (maybe she was 50, not super old but I get it lol), ". I just kind of sat there not knowing what to say. I have had both male and female FA's talk about the hotel room parties "back in the day". Personally I love it all and never got worked up about it, but to make this seem like it is all coming from some crusty white CA making $250K a year is also disingenuous.
The man issue I have with the entire DEI movement is the hypocrisy that goes along with it. If you are a protected class, you are protected and will be given the benefit of the doubt 100% of the time.
I keep work and life separate, avoid all the hot topic stuff and just try to do my job. Was it more fun "back in the day", I am willing to bet it was but I am just not willing to lose my job over it. Same reason I avoid going "down stairs" at the hotel, because what I say in a private conversation in a public space is somehow still under the auspicious of the company and the DEI groups.
04-04-2023, 09:57 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 989
DEI is the company doing exactly that, but it’s not just conversation and debate among coworkers. It’s using corporate resources and possibly punitive policies to force the acceptance of one group’s opinion into the belief structure of others, and is culturally and corporately damaging, while diverting focus from the true nature of our business which is getting people from A to B safely.
This is the best take on DEI initiatives.
04-04-2023, 10:13 AM
#37
Spikes the Koolaid
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 737
Posts: 403
Personally I love it all and never got worked up about it, but to make this seem like it is all coming from some crusty white CA making $250K a year is also disingenuous.
The man issue I have with the entire DEI movement is the hypocrisy that goes along with it. If you are a protected class, you are protected and will be given the benefit of the doubt 100% of the time.
The man issue I have with the entire DEI movement is the hypocrisy that goes along with it. If you are a protected class, you are protected and will be given the benefit of the doubt 100% of the time.
I just don't know why some of these coworkers that I interact with care so much about how somebody else identifies or to whom they're married. I've never had an issue because I don't ask, I don't care, and frankly, you're lucky as any form of coworker if I remember your name ten minutes into the flight. And that includes pilots. Always love the oh crap moment when I'm writing the names for check in at the hotel and I literally could not tell you the captain's name if you put a gun to my head.
04-04-2023, 11:19 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
That's awesome that you're like that. Seriously. I try to act the same way, as I know the majority of us do.
Unfortunately, the minority is trying to do its darnedest to ruin it for the rest of us, which is resulting in more and more measures to get them pulling in the same direction as the rest of us.
Things I have personally witnessed: a captain soliciting sex from a flight attendant in exchange for buying breakfast, a captain telling a male flight attendant that his gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, a captain complaining to a new hire flight attendant who had just finished her first day on the line that "man, it's been a long time since I've seen a new hire flight attendant's breasts", homophobic slurs, complaining about Atlanta sucking because of "the blacks", complaining to flight attendants how there aren't any sexy room parties any more, and the list goes on and on, to say nothing of the constant calling women "sweetie", "honey", etc. That's directly to their faces, and also does not include the numerous 5am cockpit rants with the door open during boarding.
This training, and the increased crackdown, is for and because of them.
I don't get mad at DEI training when I see it in class or on a DL. Sure it's annoying, and the not-so-subtle pilot hating that goes on with it is offensive, but I simply don't let it get under my skin. I'm an adult and am capable of listening to boring workplace seminars on things that don't apply to me or are offensive to me without getting worked up.
I absolutely wish that some of the most easily offended ones would grow the hell up and get even the slightest more thick skin, but I also know that it's not happening in a vacuum, because of some of the absolutely horrific things I've heard and seen.
Treat it like the lessons-learned stuff like unstable approaches or flawed decision making that we get to learn about in DLs and CQT: it doesn't apply to me, and so the purpose of that training is to reinforce my good decision making and helps keep me honest.
The biggest action item that I channel my energy into after listening to those presentations is that we need separate hotels. For everybody's sake.
This kind of training isn't new, it's been happening and getting updated for the better part of 60 years. Just put those sections on mute if you really don't want to hear them.
Unfortunately, the minority is trying to do its darnedest to ruin it for the rest of us, which is resulting in more and more measures to get them pulling in the same direction as the rest of us.
Things I have personally witnessed: a captain soliciting sex from a flight attendant in exchange for buying breakfast, a captain telling a male flight attendant that his gay marriage is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, a captain complaining to a new hire flight attendant who had just finished her first day on the line that "man, it's been a long time since I've seen a new hire flight attendant's breasts", homophobic slurs, complaining about Atlanta sucking because of "the blacks", complaining to flight attendants how there aren't any sexy room parties any more, and the list goes on and on, to say nothing of the constant calling women "sweetie", "honey", etc. That's directly to their faces, and also does not include the numerous 5am cockpit rants with the door open during boarding.
This training, and the increased crackdown, is for and because of them.
I don't get mad at DEI training when I see it in class or on a DL. Sure it's annoying, and the not-so-subtle pilot hating that goes on with it is offensive, but I simply don't let it get under my skin. I'm an adult and am capable of listening to boring workplace seminars on things that don't apply to me or are offensive to me without getting worked up.
I absolutely wish that some of the most easily offended ones would grow the hell up and get even the slightest more thick skin, but I also know that it's not happening in a vacuum, because of some of the absolutely horrific things I've heard and seen.
Treat it like the lessons-learned stuff like unstable approaches or flawed decision making that we get to learn about in DLs and CQT: it doesn't apply to me, and so the purpose of that training is to reinforce my good decision making and helps keep me honest.
The biggest action item that I channel my energy into after listening to those presentations is that we need separate hotels. For everybody's sake.
This kind of training isn't new, it's been happening and getting updated for the better part of 60 years. Just put those sections on mute if you really don't want to hear them.
There will always be a few outliers that ruin it for everyone. They should be punished individually.
Overall, I don't really care one way or another about the whole DEI thing. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
My biggest concern is inadvertently "offending" someone and getting in trouble for it.
There are also definitely some folks out there fishing for a pilot DEI violation. It's mostly been FAs but I flew with an FO like that last year. They were constantly baiting me from the second I met them, but I refused to take it. We finally found some common ground and they lightened up a bit, but it was a long 3 days.
04-04-2023, 06:00 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,778
I get it and agee.
There will always be a few outliers that ruin it for everyone. They should be punished individually.
Overall, I don't really care one way or another about the whole DEI thing. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
My biggest concern is inadvertently "offending" someone and getting in trouble for it.
There are also definitely some folks out there fishing for a pilot DEI violation. It's mostly been FAs but I flew with an FO like that last year. They were constantly baiting me from the second I met them, but I refused to take it. We finally found some common ground and they lightened up a bit, but it was a long 3 days.
There will always be a few outliers that ruin it for everyone. They should be punished individually.
Overall, I don't really care one way or another about the whole DEI thing. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
My biggest concern is inadvertently "offending" someone and getting in trouble for it.
There are also definitely some folks out there fishing for a pilot DEI violation. It's mostly been FAs but I flew with an FO like that last year. They were constantly baiting me from the second I met them, but I refused to take it. We finally found some common ground and they lightened up a bit, but it was a long 3 days.
04-04-2023, 06:18 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 643
I get it and agee.
There will always be a few outliers that ruin it for everyone. They should be punished individually.
Overall, I don't really care one way or another about the whole DEI thing. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
My biggest concern is inadvertently "offending" someone and getting in trouble for it.
There are also definitely some folks out there fishing for a pilot DEI violation. It's mostly been FAs but I flew with an FO like that last year. They were constantly baiting me from the second I met them, but I refused to take it. We finally found some common ground and they lightened up a bit, but it was a long 3 days.
There will always be a few outliers that ruin it for everyone. They should be punished individually.
Overall, I don't really care one way or another about the whole DEI thing. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
My biggest concern is inadvertently "offending" someone and getting in trouble for it.
There are also definitely some folks out there fishing for a pilot DEI violation. It's mostly been FAs but I flew with an FO like that last year. They were constantly baiting me from the second I met them, but I refused to take it. We finally found some common ground and they lightened up a bit, but it was a long 3 days.
