Lewbronski

Great! Because they do count. It's almost like you're stating this as if they're a cohort within our pilot group who can be dismissed out of hand.

I've been here about twenty years myself. And this isn't my first airline. So. I'm pretty much in the group you're talking about. This sort of information is meaningful to me.

But I think you're implying that because, 22 years ago, for a number of reasons, SWA was able to handle the impact of 9/11 significantly better than the OAL's, that the same is therefore necessarily true today. I don't agree.

The world has changed in significant and meaningful ways. Small example: the first iPhone hadn't even debuted until six years after 9/11. And it's nowhere near as clear as it was after 9/11 that SWA weathered the storm of the pandemic as well as Delta or some of our other competitors.

The fact that, for example, 84% of us ratified a TA whose primary selling point was a B-fund that was and still is industry-lagging when other airlines had already had B-funds for years before we got ours argues against your contention. AirTran had a B-fund for more than a decade before we got ours. The fact that 84% of us ratified a contract that contained what has effectively amounted to nearly a force majeure clause in the "irregular operations" definition also counters your assertion.

But, obviously, I hope you're right. I hope we're not as "soft" (your word) going forward as we have historically been.

Define "we will go down swinging."

And you know what they say about ad hominems, right? It means you've run out of rational arguments. Now, your play is to attempt to discredit me personally by, in this case, making a prediction about my future actions based on a straw man character you are seeking to create out of me.

Same thing. Another ad hominem. Please use a rational argument.

Lewbronski

Thank you for the support. I really don't get it either.

This will probably make some people mad, but it's not intended to. Playing armchair psychoanalyst for a bit: my best guess is that when a pilot has made a decision to commit themselves to a particular airline, particularly after they've been at that airline for more than a couple of years, their ego becomes bound to that decision. They need to know that they were right about that decision and that people who made other decisions weren't as right about their decisions. Obviously, if this sort of dynamic is, in fact, a factor in what you're seeing play out on this thread and others, then it's not a binary thing. It happens on a spectrum. Some people are more ego-bound to their decision than others. I think it has at least something to do with our seniority system that imposes such a steep cost on those who might otherwise decide to leave. That factor may tend to subconsciously dispose people to need to justify the rightness of their decision to themselves and others even more than it might without the sort of seniority system we live under.

I'm sure some version of the above is playing out in myself as well. Maybe in my case, since I'm "past V1" at SWA, my way of trying to battle my egoic demons is to fight for the best possible contract so that I can ego-justify my decision long ago to come here. Maybe.

Maybe other people's way is to tell themselves and those who will listen that in spite of X, Y, and Z, SWA is the best place overall because of A, B, and C. People who challenge that idea also challenge their ego.

And ... cue the psychobabble, "speak for yourself," etc attacks in 3, 2, 1.

flyguy81

I’m a YES vote on the SAV and I’d walk tomorrow if allowed. SWA can afford to pay us 200% and still pull a profit and I’m done making less than my peers. I’ll vote NO on any TA that doesn’t fix our current CBA’s issues (disability, per diem, training sched, rsv, JA’s, etc) AND give us pay that’s equal to or exceeds our peers at the big 3. The concession stand is closed.

As far as upgrade times go? I’d use 7-8 yrs for SWA. If you’re charting the ability to upgrade at first shot? 1 yr at DL/UAL. If you’re charting when people are more likely to bid it? 3-4 yrs (that’s just based on when friends of mine upgraded after they bypassed for awhile for QOL.)

As you prob know, it’s harder to gauge NB upgrade time when you’ve got a multi-fleet airline as you’ve got the choice to do WB FO which has better QOL than Junior NB CA.

Lewbronski

Here's one 8-year scenario for RJS and flyguy. What are the issues you guys have with it now?

Excargodog

Hey, if that’s the best retort you can come up with don’t even bother with the sarcasm. I’m not sufficiently impressed by your argument to even be insulted by you.

flyguy81

My issue is we need to get paid a lot more.

Proximity

Nope.

I'm not committed to here due to any egotistical need to be proven right. I constantly assess if I'm making the right choice by staying. For me, using reasonable assumptions and the situational factors unique to me, I continue to make the choice to stay.

I've also come out and said a few times that I chose poorly when it came to VSP. I made some assumptions about the recovery from COIVD and he health of other airlines that turned out to be incorrect. I should have left. Ironically, out of the two places I wanted to go, one is facing quite a few issues (Fedex) and likely would have been a mistake. My other choice...well I'd be a Captain where I live. However, from here based on my assumptions going forward it's the right choice for me to stay.

Here's the issue with what Lew is doing. It's 100% factual that we get paid less than Delta, both before Delta TA and significantly more so after their TA. It's also true that anyone that is junior here should take a very hard look if this is the place to be. However, Lew's charts are exaggerations that turn reasonable and/or knowledge people off. SWAPA also has done this to some degree. There is no need to exaggerate when it's already the truth.

MudhammedCJ

The yessies are out in force. Some of them are just about to upgrade and they think they're about to start farting through silk... They'll get over it while trying not to get mugged on an Oakland overnight where they're about to spend their next 3-4 months on reserve. They'll get over their stupidity soon. Maybe. Too bad it will be too late to vote yes on a SAV and no on a very underwhelming TA.. I'm so embarrassed by these "pilots."

Zard

There’s a captain in Denver who is voting no for the SAV because he thinks we have the best contract out there, even after delta’s new TA. Some people are literally too stupid to argue with.

Crockrocket95

Im still amazed at the number of people who dont wear a lanyard or anything in support of the union...