Mozam

Only one reason to come here and that is the big 3 love to poach WN pilots . It is a fast track to the big 3

hoover

how is this sustainable? There is only so many bodies left and everyone wants them. It's like they are dragging negotiations so they can tank the deliveries of planes so they wont grow and that'll raise the stock price.

calmemployment

You mean tank the stock price?

hoover

usually stock prices go down with growth because they need to spend capital instead of buy back stocks or pay dividends. Therefore, if the airline doesnt grow but is still profitable, which it is, the stick price should go up rewarding the investors of whom are the BOD & C suite folks

thrustisamust

Lets be honest, if we signed a delta equivalent contract tomorrow this place will still be most ppls 4th or 5th choice.

flyguy81

Prob not. I’d wager most people leaving are doing so for: QOL or pay reasons. If we fix the pay, then that leaves QOL. If someone takes the job and wants to fly WB planes….there’s not a damn thing you can do to keep them. Fix some work rules so QOL is better here and those on the fence will prob stay.

Our attrition still isn’t even remotely close to that of other LCC’s. If mgt thinks our losses are acceptable…whatever. Makes my yes vote in 20 days that much easier.

ZapBrannigan

My thoughts exactly

Lewbronski

The chances of us fixing the pay differential between us and Delta is nearly nil. SWAPA is almost for sure not going for Delta-plus career, or 7-year, or 15-year, etc compensation. They are, from all indications, going for industry-leading NB rates. Over nearly any meaningful length of time, industry-leading NB rates will not come close to closing the real pay gap between us and Delta (or UA or AA when they get their new contracts). Depending on the time frame compared, to truly close the gap with where Delta is now would require anywhere from a 65% to more than a 100% rate raise. The rumored rates are nowhere near even the low end of that range. Why are we doing that to ourselves?

And again, virtually no one in the pilot group seems to care. OTOF, the DEI, crew luggage, and STL oil service threads have all generated far more interest than the thread about career compensation. It's truly sad, IMO. But it's par for the course for this pilot group if you've been here more than a few years to witness this sort of thing play out over and over and over again. Sometimes, I feel like I live in an alternate reality advocating for industry-leading career compensation and for using the credible threat of a legal strike as leverage. The members of this pilot group seem, for the most part, to actively not care about and/or even oppose those things. Feels like Shutter Island.

Anyway, there's almost no chance we're going to really "fix" the pay. So, SWA will never be able to truly compete with the Big Three in terms of pay unless, as an individual you're willing to work significantly more block hours per month than they do for years/decades on end to achieve parity with them.

The reason we'll never be able to compete in terms of pay is not because we don't have the ability to achieve industry-leading pay, but because the pilot group simply doesn't appear to have the desire for industry-leading pay. It seems we'd rather pound our fists on the table about things we have almost zero control over like DEI and how Bob Jordan tells us he loves us too much when, in this environment, we could have, if we cared about it, almost total control over how much we will be getting paid, our work rules, our benefits, and our retirement under the next contract.

What about QOL? Even if you don't care about flying WB's, the fact that other airlines offer WB flying improves the quality of life for everyone at those airlines by creating a sort of artificial seniority by virtue of offering multiple fleet types. That has been discussed many times before here on APC. Beyond that, right now, Delta's mature contract has so many little QOL features that we lack, that I think it's honestly beyond SWAPA's ability to get their mind wrapped around us having anything like that here. The only advantage I can think of that we can truly argue is industry-leading is the Regular Plan. That is a very nice thing to have but it's dwarfed by all the many, many other inadequacies of our contract. Did you read about the Delta pilot OTOF who gets $250/month to NOT take two parking spots in NY? What about the pensionable feature of their profit sharing plan?

flyguy81

If you live in or near a Delta base, go to Delta. Same can be said for United or American.

Some people, myself included, will not commute under any circumstance. Even if that means another $1-2 mil in career earnings.

There’s more to life than cash….like doing what I enjoy and watching my kids grow up (something that was nearly impossible when I was commuting over 2 time zones to NYC.) There isn’t a pile of money large enough to get me to do that crap again. Some might enjoy the option, and they can have it. If that makes you happy, go for it!

According to some interviewers here, they’re noticing there a lack of supply of applicants and a good CBA might fix that problem. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Lewbronski

Right now, under our current contracts, the difference between DAL and SWA over eight years is up to $1.3M and the difference over 30 years is up to $6.5M. That doesn't include the difference in retirement contributions and profit sharing (their profit sharing is pensionable, ours is not). So, the difference is a lot larger than $1 to $2 M in career earnings.

But, I understand money doesn't matter to you that much. I'm just clarifying for people for whom money does matter.

But then again, if money doesn't really matter to you very much, why did you take the first or nearly first available upgrade when you can have much better control over your schedule as a senior FO, including flying less days per month enabling you to be at home more days per month to enjoy your life and watch your kids grow up?

Anyway, the question we're discussing (I think) is if SWAPA will be able to achieve a contract that "fixes" the pay problem and thereby improves pilot recruitment and retention. My contention is that SWAPA isn't even attempting to achieve rates that could get anywhere near closing the gap in compensation between SWA and DL (or AA or UA) when they get their new contracts) over any meaningful length of time in an amount consequential enough to return SWA to the status of an appealing career airline. Added to that, the pilot group doesn't really care about closing the gap either. So, the gap isn't going to be closed. Compensation, therefore, isn't going to attract or retain pilots at SWA.

And then QOL? I'd contend that SWA doesn't offer any kind of broad QOL advantage over The Big Three or UPS. At best, if you squint your eyes and look through your fingers as if they were a peephole, you might say QOL between SWA and The Big Three is a wash. But many would argue that QOL at SWA is markedly worse than at The Big Three and UPS.

I honestly don't think SWAPA nor this pilot group has it in them to achieve a contract "good" enough to fix the problem of a lack of supply of applicants. SWAPA and the pilot group are sort of like The Little Dutch Boy seeing the hole in the dike, and instead of sticking his finger in it to save the town, gets distracted and fails his town. I mean, the evidence abounds: for example, reference the DEI thread OTOF with it's nearly 51K views and more than 510 replies compared to the career compensation thread that almost immediately fell off the first page with only six replies and 1,100-ish views. In a way, that little observation says volumes about where our pilot group's mindset is focused.

So, I don't know what's going to attract and retain pilots here in the short to medium term before the waves of programmed D225 disciples begin to arrive. The reasons I can think of that someone might come here right now are: 1) they want to dress up their resume to trigger a call from one of The Big Three or UPS, 2) they have some sort of family legacy situation going on at SWA and there's a major emotional reason to come here, 3) they are frozen in a city that has a SWA base but doesn't have a base for The Big Three or UPS, or 4) they lack the qualifications to go elsewhere.

An alternate version of The Little Dutch Boy if he had the mind of a SWA pilot (credit to ChatGPT):