Originally Posted by MudhammedCJ

I can tell we're about to have an AIP. When the sales team comes out to gaslight us, we're almost there.

Originally Posted by mulcher

Yup they are starting to come out.

Originally Posted by hoover

that's a lot of assumptions based on what other airlines do and how they bid.
So basically nothing you are assuming is confirmed in how SW is going to do it yet you seem to be all for it?
c'mon man you know how many grievances we have? Way more than any other airline. You gotta think - how can the company exploit this and hose me over- not how great it might be.
Call me more pessimistic.
Have you seen the hotel language for the FAs that is supposed to be based on our AIPd language.
It's full of holes and bad language. If this is an indication of the rest of the contract we might as well start over

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan

You guys are teeing up the "Don't blame me, I voted no" a little early this year. I think that means six more weeks of winter. 😄

I'll let you know if I'm PO'd about the TA when we actually have a TA to be PO'd about.

My line in the sand is STILL LTD that includes retirement contributions and no offsets.

But you guys have this cart WAY out in front of the horse. I'll be extremely surprised if there's a TA by the end of the month.

Originally Posted by ElonMusk

Thats not exactly what you posted. So that is disingenuous to put that in quotes….

In addition I don’t believe anyone has pledged to vote yes, your words not mine. I lean one way but have stated before I will take the language, when it comes out, to decide one way or another. I also rate the TA on its entirety and not just on one part so to say the entire TA is a no because I may or may not like a specific part….thats just not right.

A contract is a negotiation and while we have all the leverage we could ever want I also understand you sometimes have to change certain items to get other items from the company.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

I pasted the email from the union about it. MS also explained a few points as well. There was also a note from NC about it as well.

I know we have 140+ grievances outstanding, and I don't put it past the company to try and exploit everything they can. At the same time, you gotta ask yourself, do you really trust our NC, or are you gonna clam up and join the ranks of these miserable people who cannot be pleased no matter what, and constantly crap all over our NC?

Look at it from this perspective.... we tasked our NC to deliver us a completely rewritten industry-leading contract. They're doing it, and especially in the areas that matter such as LTD, work rules, soft money provisions. They're not agreeing to concepts and then cleaning up language after we ratify it... instead, they're addressing the language and cleaning up any ambiguities so we don't end up with 140+ grievances as a result of it using notes from a 1994 parking lot conversation. The co-terminals is not a new concept. It's been in use for years at legacies. Since the company approached SWAPA at sort of the last second, I really don't think it takes much to dissect their language, modify it to our operation, and add more protections for our junior/reserve folks than the legacies have (transportation to/from a co-terminal assignment).

With respect to hotels, I don't care about FA TA - I'm a pilot. I'll look at ours when it comes out.

Originally Posted by hoover

questioning the NC is ok and should be done. Remember the 2016 contract and if you questioned JW you were against the union? Remember how they later admitted to rushing the AIP to get a deal done and now we are trying to undue that language mess?

Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna

Agree on the line in the sand….. but if you wait to get PO’d until the turd is presented to you then you run the risk of being too late.


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Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

This "shorter drive" excuse is really comical and almost not even worth replying to because it's a simpleton straw argument which is absurd, particularly considering our career values, how often we commute to/from work, etc. But since this is brought up by more than one person, it may be worth talking about.

In a multimillion dollar career, do you really give a damn if your drive is 10-20 minutes longer 4 times a month? Or 5? You may, but I'd bet that overwhelming majority of pilots couldn't give two rats' about it, especially considering what our careers are worth. It certainly isn't for me. 15 miles difference for me. This may make difference to someone barely making ends meet and doing the drive every day... To most pilots who make the drive 4-5 times PER MONTH, well.... it just doesn't matter. But sure is nice to have choices...

Now, I've beaten the commuter drum too, and how many more options we have commuting to the big airport and not just depend on us, but you conveniently ignored that as well.... Yet, you talk about 'I-got-mine.' That's rich...





OK, math time. 20% is the maximum allowed. It could and likely will be quite a bit lower unless and until the company develops those markets, at which point 20% is the contractual limit.

For example, 500 hard lines in base.
Maximum of 100 possible hard lines in co-terminal (20%).

Blanks come from mil, vacation, training pulls, etc. Do you think that everyone will bid co-terminal flying when they go on vacation and that's all that will be in blanks? Seriously... answer me this. Also, do you really think that co-terminal flying will be so junior that you will be forced to "drive extra 2 hours" for it and that not one local who lives closer to the co-terminal, or prefers trips out of co-terminals, or has a much easier commute to a co-terminal than to our base wouldn't bid on that flying? The math and the reality just don't agree with you.



Who will drive extra 2 hours? You, based on you "buying in the right part of town"? And everyone else is selfish? If you say so... As for me, I'll be the one bidding reserve, proffer for any co-terminal flying, if there is any, as it usually goes senior, and get chauffeured to/from work in Uber Black every time flying out of co-terminal. It'll be like international and ETOPS flying. First, you'll have people avoiding it altogether because they're scared of it. Then you won't be able to touch any of it because the word will get out and it'll go stupid senior.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

You're absolutely right. The NC is doing the exact opposite this time around - they're finalizing the language before AIPing it.



Sure thing. But this is really making a mountain out of a molehill. Seriously, co-terminals are a bigger issue than LCO? Loss of move-ups? Come on.... yet, no one is talking about it.



Absolutely, and I expect the company to keep trying. That's why language is important. Education is also important and I agree it's been missing, but there's nothing stopping us from educating ourselves on the concept, seeing how it works elsewhere and how it's been proposed to function here and then debate and ask more questions. Instead, we get Profane Kahuna repeating the same nonsense and proving time and time again that he a) doesn't even understand the concept and b) hasn't even read NC's explanations let alone comprehend them, and c) acknowledge or even consider basic math and realistic bidding patterns...

Healthy debate is a good thing... and speaking of debate... what does the peanut gallery think of the LCO concept and doing away with move-ups?