1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
11-04-2023, 09:46 PM
#1541
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,781
I beg to differ. Here's what happens when you separate DFW and DAL:
Separate open time. Separate bids. Less flexibility by not being able to ELITT in and out of trips. Less OT and reduced seniority for open time. Put yourself in this situation... you live equidistant to both airports. Do you want better ability to manipulate your schedule, or do you want to place more restrictions on you being able to manipulate your schedule?
What about it? It ain't happening. Shot down by SWAPA. Company bungles up these 3, they can kiss any of the additional co-terminals goodbye.
Bingo! Wait for the language and see if it adds up.
Except it's not another city. It's the larger international airport in the city where we already have a base. And you're saying F-U to people who are based in those cities. For what reason? Hell if I know... anger at the company?
Like I said before, this ain't the hill to die on. But you know what is? Reigning Scheduling in and requiring them to use open time bidders to cover flying and stop burning through reserves. Scheduling would burn through their reserve by 1700 or even 1300 DOT close the previous day, and then it's reroute city for everyone. Screw what you bid for, or traded into for a very specific reason.... It's all about covering gross incompetence and mismanagement of resources by completely negating our seniority. To me, fighting that is one of the hills absolutely worth dying on. That's why I'm way more interested in hearing about LCO and what kind of obstacles and incentives we'll have to stop and prevent abrogation of our seniority by some 22 year old kid in Scheduling who's not allowed to question, let alone change the insanity their computer spits out.
I'll wait for the language and see the finished product before passing judgment. You guys may not be good with co-terminals, and so far I am... On the other hand, I have SERIOUS reservations about LCO and protections against the 22 year old kid in Scheduling and their sadistic tendencies. As the MiataMaster perfectly said, don't sell it, explain it. Open mind.... works wonders.
Separate open time. Separate bids. Less flexibility by not being able to ELITT in and out of trips. Less OT and reduced seniority for open time. Put yourself in this situation... you live equidistant to both airports. Do you want better ability to manipulate your schedule, or do you want to place more restrictions on you being able to manipulate your schedule?
What about it? It ain't happening. Shot down by SWAPA. Company bungles up these 3, they can kiss any of the additional co-terminals goodbye.
Bingo! Wait for the language and see if it adds up.
Except it's not another city. It's the larger international airport in the city where we already have a base. And you're saying F-U to people who are based in those cities. For what reason? Hell if I know... anger at the company?
Like I said before, this ain't the hill to die on. But you know what is? Reigning Scheduling in and requiring them to use open time bidders to cover flying and stop burning through reserves. Scheduling would burn through their reserve by 1700 or even 1300 DOT close the previous day, and then it's reroute city for everyone. Screw what you bid for, or traded into for a very specific reason.... It's all about covering gross incompetence and mismanagement of resources by completely negating our seniority. To me, fighting that is one of the hills absolutely worth dying on. That's why I'm way more interested in hearing about LCO and what kind of obstacles and incentives we'll have to stop and prevent abrogation of our seniority by some 22 year old kid in Scheduling who's not allowed to question, let alone change the insanity their computer spits out.
I'll wait for the language and see the finished product before passing judgment. You guys may not be good with co-terminals, and so far I am... On the other hand, I have SERIOUS reservations about LCO and protections against the 22 year old kid in Scheduling and their sadistic tendencies. As the MiataMaster perfectly said, don't sell it, explain it. Open mind.... works wonders.
What about it is the camel has its nose under the tent. How far does it go?
11-04-2023, 09:57 PM
#1542
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
However far you let it... there's nothing that obligates SWAPA to allow them to expand co-terminals to other places. So the question to you is if this concept fails, why would we ever allow them to expand it?
11-05-2023, 02:48 AM
#1543
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
11-05-2023, 03:11 AM
#1545
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
I beg to differ. Here's what happens when you separate DFW and DAL:
Separate open time. Separate bids. Less flexibility by not being able to ELITT in and out of trips. Less OT and reduced seniority for open time. Put yourself in this situation... you live equidistant to both airports. Do you want better ability to manipulate your schedule, or do you want to place more restrictions on you being able to manipulate your schedule?
What about it? It ain't happening. Shot down by SWAPA. Company bungles up these 3, they can kiss any of the additional co-terminals goodbye.
Bingo! Wait for the language and see if it adds up.
Except it's not another city. It's the larger international airport in the city where we already have a base. And you're saying F-U to people who are based in those cities. For what reason? Hell if I know... anger at the company?
Like I said before, this ain't the hill to die on. But you know what is? Reigning Scheduling in and requiring them to use open time bidders to cover flying and stop burning through reserves. Scheduling would burn through their reserve by 1700 or even 1300 DOT close the previous day, and then it's reroute city for everyone. Screw what you bid for, or traded into for a very specific reason.... It's all about covering gross incompetence and mismanagement of resources by completely negating our seniority. To me, fighting that is one of the hills absolutely worth dying on. That's why I'm way more interested in hearing about LCO and what kind of obstacles and incentives we'll have to stop and prevent abrogation of our seniority by some 22 year old kid in Scheduling who's not allowed to question, let alone change the insanity their computer spits out.
I'll wait for the language and see the finished product before passing judgment. You guys may not be good with co-terminals, and so far I am... On the other hand, I have SERIOUS reservations about LCO and protections against the 22 year old kid in Scheduling and their sadistic tendencies. As the MiataMaster perfectly said, don't sell it, explain it. Open mind.... works wonders.
Separate open time. Separate bids. Less flexibility by not being able to ELITT in and out of trips. Less OT and reduced seniority for open time. Put yourself in this situation... you live equidistant to both airports. Do you want better ability to manipulate your schedule, or do you want to place more restrictions on you being able to manipulate your schedule?
What about it? It ain't happening. Shot down by SWAPA. Company bungles up these 3, they can kiss any of the additional co-terminals goodbye.
Bingo! Wait for the language and see if it adds up.
Except it's not another city. It's the larger international airport in the city where we already have a base. And you're saying F-U to people who are based in those cities. For what reason? Hell if I know... anger at the company?
Like I said before, this ain't the hill to die on. But you know what is? Reigning Scheduling in and requiring them to use open time bidders to cover flying and stop burning through reserves. Scheduling would burn through their reserve by 1700 or even 1300 DOT close the previous day, and then it's reroute city for everyone. Screw what you bid for, or traded into for a very specific reason.... It's all about covering gross incompetence and mismanagement of resources by completely negating our seniority. To me, fighting that is one of the hills absolutely worth dying on. That's why I'm way more interested in hearing about LCO and what kind of obstacles and incentives we'll have to stop and prevent abrogation of our seniority by some 22 year old kid in Scheduling who's not allowed to question, let alone change the insanity their computer spits out.
I'll wait for the language and see the finished product before passing judgment. You guys may not be good with co-terminals, and so far I am... On the other hand, I have SERIOUS reservations about LCO and protections against the 22 year old kid in Scheduling and their sadistic tendencies. As the MiataMaster perfectly said, don't sell it, explain it. Open mind.... works wonders.
11-05-2023, 05:36 AM
#1546
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
Look man it is obvious that you want it. Where we disagree is here. Having the bases seperate will indeed have seperate open time, elit and everything you mentioned. That is good for relative seniority. You can still bid it from DAL. But you will have less priority than the ones based there. Your version of this like many things here that are heavily favored towards being senior at the cost of screwing over junior guys. Should we just get rid of all bases and have elit and open time cross between all bases. As you would argue it would help with options and improve our QOL? No the reality is it will only benefit the guys that live closer and the senior. Junior guys and reserve will be miserable. It is similar to having multiple fleets. Your base and relative seniority gives people options and create a spread of seniority. Some bases being more senior than others. As another has mentioned its like opening another base. It does not matter if it is 30 miles away. It's a concession plain and simple. You just are arguing selling part of your group to the company at your own benefit. I get it you want this. But clearly we don't.
And your point about giving away ELITT and open time across the base is just downright ridiculous.... this is not a hyperbole measuring contest. But since you want to talk about "reality", lets talk about it:
1) If you are a commuter, which airport generally has far more commute options - the big international airport (DFW, IAH, ORD), or the satellite airport we blew up over the decades (DAL, HOU, MDW)? Start playing with Staff Traveler and look at commute options - the number will surprise you.
2) While this does indeed benefit those who live in those cities, you failed to tell me HOW will a junior pilots and those on reserve get screwed? Here's what SWAPA says:
- Reserve callout time for a co-terminal will be three hours.
- Reserves will be given premium for a callout that is less than three hours to the co-terminal.
- Reserves will not be added onto a different co-terminal than the one they are returning to.
- Reserves will be reimbursed for taxi, Uber, or equivalent transportation when covering co-terminal flying.
There's your junior reserve assignment right there. How are you getting screwed? Describe the misery you're talking about. Is it because you're now inconvenienced for having to forward your Uber Black receipt for reimbursement? Do tell...
Parroting crap on APC is easy and it's lazy. Ironically, if we went by the forum barometer, our current contract would have been shot down by the same margin it passed by and no recent legacy contract would have a snowball chance in hell of passing... yet miracles keep happening. Think for yourself, ask questions and don't be lazy.
Now tell me how are the reserves going to be miserable. And here, let me help you.... Scheduling thinks they're failing if a reserve is not used. So when they let their enthusiasm for going through 20 reserves the day prior and now they're hosed, say hello to reroutes, JA's and abrogating our seniority. So tell me.... what presents more of a threat to your misery index as a reserve pilot - Scheduling policies or co-terminals? If you have half a brain and actually pay attention vs. parrot BS, you'll know it's the Scheduling policies which tend to screw you even when you're no longer a reserve pilot. That's why I say THAT is the hill to die on; co-terminals aren't even in the same league.
11-05-2023, 05:46 AM
#1547
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 988
No. My version of this gives people more choices in life. Clearly you haven't been here very long because if you were, you'd know that this pilot group has a tendency cut their own legs from underneath because something is "boohooohoooo.... NOT FAIR" and usually in the interest of "fairness" give away the flexibility for everyone.
And your point about giving away ELITT and open time across the base is just downright ridiculous.... this is not a hyperbole measuring contest. But since you want to talk about "reality", lets talk about it:
1) If you are a commuter, which airport generally has far more commute options - the big international airport (DFW, IAH, ORD), or the satellite airport we blew up over the decades (DAL, HOU, MDW)? Start playing with Staff Traveler and look at commute options - the number will surprise you.
2) While this does indeed benefit those who live in those cities, you failed to tell me HOW will a junior pilots and those on reserve get screwed? Here's what SWAPA says:
There's your junior reserve assignment right there. How are you getting screwed? Describe the misery you're talking about. Is it because you're now inconvenienced for having to forward your Uber Black receipt for reimbursement? Do tell...
Parroting crap on APC is easy and it's lazy. Ironically, if we went by the forum barometer, our current contract would have been shot down by the same margin it passed by and no recent legacy contract would have a snowball chance in hell of passing... yet miracles keep happening. Think for yourself, ask questions and don't be lazy.
Now tell me how are the reserves going to be miserable. And here, let me help you.... Scheduling thinks they're failing if a reserve is not used. So when they let their enthusiasm for going through 20 reserves the day prior and now they're hosed, say hello to reroutes, JA's and abrogating our seniority. So tell me.... what presents more of a threat to your misery index as a reserve pilot - Scheduling policies or co-terminals? If you have half a brain and actually pay attention vs. parrot BS, you'll know it's the Scheduling policies which tend to screw you even when you're no longer a reserve pilot. That's why I say THAT is the hill to die on; co-terminals aren't even in the same league.
And your point about giving away ELITT and open time across the base is just downright ridiculous.... this is not a hyperbole measuring contest. But since you want to talk about "reality", lets talk about it:
1) If you are a commuter, which airport generally has far more commute options - the big international airport (DFW, IAH, ORD), or the satellite airport we blew up over the decades (DAL, HOU, MDW)? Start playing with Staff Traveler and look at commute options - the number will surprise you.
2) While this does indeed benefit those who live in those cities, you failed to tell me HOW will a junior pilots and those on reserve get screwed? Here's what SWAPA says:
- Reserve callout time for a co-terminal will be three hours.
- Reserves will be given premium for a callout that is less than three hours to the co-terminal.
- Reserves will not be added onto a different co-terminal than the one they are returning to.
- Reserves will be reimbursed for taxi, Uber, or equivalent transportation when covering co-terminal flying.
There's your junior reserve assignment right there. How are you getting screwed? Describe the misery you're talking about. Is it because you're now inconvenienced for having to forward your Uber Black receipt for reimbursement? Do tell...
Parroting crap on APC is easy and it's lazy. Ironically, if we went by the forum barometer, our current contract would have been shot down by the same margin it passed by and no recent legacy contract would have a snowball chance in hell of passing... yet miracles keep happening. Think for yourself, ask questions and don't be lazy.
Now tell me how are the reserves going to be miserable. And here, let me help you.... Scheduling thinks they're failing if a reserve is not used. So when they let their enthusiasm for going through 20 reserves the day prior and now they're hosed, say hello to reroutes, JA's and abrogating our seniority. So tell me.... what presents more of a threat to your misery index as a reserve pilot - Scheduling policies or co-terminals? If you have half a brain and actually pay attention vs. parrot BS, you'll know it's the Scheduling policies which tend to screw you even when you're no longer a reserve pilot. That's why I say THAT is the hill to die on; co-terminals aren't even in the same league.
I love how in your example, you breeze through KCM and go home as soon as your trip finishes back at DFW. That right there tells me you aren’t being realistic. You think it’s going to be kumbaya and scheduling will magically obey every intention of the rewrite.
Who is parroting BS, again?
11-05-2023, 05:50 AM
#1548
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
I love how in your example, you breeze through KCM and go home as soon as your trip finishes back at DFW. That right there tells me you aren’t being realistic. You think it’s going to be kumbaya and scheduling will magically obey every intention of the rewrite.
Who is parroting BS, again?
Who is parroting BS, again?
11-05-2023, 05:56 AM
#1549
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,153
.
11-05-2023, 06:58 AM
#1550
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
No. My version of this gives people more choices in life. Clearly you haven't been here very long because if you were, you'd know that this pilot group has a tendency cut their own legs from underneath because something is "boohooohoooo.... NOT FAIR" and usually in the interest of "fairness" give away the flexibility for everyone.
And your point about giving away ELITT and open time across the base is just downright ridiculous.... this is not a hyperbole measuring contest. But since you want to talk about "reality", lets talk about it:
1) If you are a commuter, which airport generally has far more commute options - the big international airport (DFW, IAH, ORD), or the satellite airport we blew up over the decades (DAL, HOU, MDW)? Start playing with Staff Traveler and look at commute options - the number will surprise you.
2) While this does indeed benefit those who live in those cities, you failed to tell me HOW will a junior pilots and those on reserve get screwed? Here's what SWAPA says:
There's your junior reserve assignment right there. How are you getting screwed? Describe the misery you're talking about. Is it because you're now inconvenienced for having to forward your Uber Black receipt for reimbursement? Do tell...
Parroting crap on APC is easy and it's lazy. Ironically, if we went by the forum barometer, our current contract would have been shot down by the same margin it passed by and no recent legacy contract would have a snowball chance in hell of passing... yet miracles keep happening. Think for yourself, ask questions and don't be lazy.
Now tell me how are the reserves going to be miserable. And here, let me help you.... Scheduling thinks they're failing if a reserve is not used. So when they let their enthusiasm for going through 20 reserves the day prior and now they're hosed, say hello to reroutes, JA's and abrogating our seniority. So tell me.... what presents more of a threat to your misery index as a reserve pilot - Scheduling policies or co-terminals? If you have half a brain and actually pay attention vs. parrot BS, you'll know it's the Scheduling policies which tend to screw you even when you're no longer a reserve pilot. That's why I say THAT is the hill to die on; co-terminals aren't even in the same league.
And your point about giving away ELITT and open time across the base is just downright ridiculous.... this is not a hyperbole measuring contest. But since you want to talk about "reality", lets talk about it:
1) If you are a commuter, which airport generally has far more commute options - the big international airport (DFW, IAH, ORD), or the satellite airport we blew up over the decades (DAL, HOU, MDW)? Start playing with Staff Traveler and look at commute options - the number will surprise you.
2) While this does indeed benefit those who live in those cities, you failed to tell me HOW will a junior pilots and those on reserve get screwed? Here's what SWAPA says:
- Reserve callout time for a co-terminal will be three hours.
- Reserves will be given premium for a callout that is less than three hours to the co-terminal.
- Reserves will not be added onto a different co-terminal than the one they are returning to.
- Reserves will be reimbursed for taxi, Uber, or equivalent transportation when covering co-terminal flying.
There's your junior reserve assignment right there. How are you getting screwed? Describe the misery you're talking about. Is it because you're now inconvenienced for having to forward your Uber Black receipt for reimbursement? Do tell...
Parroting crap on APC is easy and it's lazy. Ironically, if we went by the forum barometer, our current contract would have been shot down by the same margin it passed by and no recent legacy contract would have a snowball chance in hell of passing... yet miracles keep happening. Think for yourself, ask questions and don't be lazy.
Now tell me how are the reserves going to be miserable. And here, let me help you.... Scheduling thinks they're failing if a reserve is not used. So when they let their enthusiasm for going through 20 reserves the day prior and now they're hosed, say hello to reroutes, JA's and abrogating our seniority. So tell me.... what presents more of a threat to your misery index as a reserve pilot - Scheduling policies or co-terminals? If you have half a brain and actually pay attention vs. parrot BS, you'll know it's the Scheduling policies which tend to screw you even when you're no longer a reserve pilot. That's why I say THAT is the hill to die on; co-terminals aren't even in the same league.
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