1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
11-04-2023, 11:31 AM
#1531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
🔥👇
11-04-2023, 11:41 AM
#1532
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 195
______ left till National Mediation Board decides if Southwest pilots can strike.
Yea yea it’s not 100 percent accurate but the public doesn’t need to know that.
11-04-2023, 01:56 PM
#1533
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
If SWAPA was smart they would have an electronic billboard on Mockingbird with a countdown to Nov 30….stating.
______ left till National Mediation Board decides if Southwest pilots can strike.
Yea yea it’s not 100 percent accurate but the public doesn’t need to know that.
______ left till National Mediation Board decides if Southwest pilots can strike.
Yea yea it’s not 100 percent accurate but the public doesn’t need to know that.
🔥👇
11-04-2023, 02:01 PM
#1534
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,153
Problem is as soon as pilots started speaking up about the co-terminal concession, Santoro was all over facebook “selling” it.
So the sell job has already started.
.
11-04-2023, 03:06 PM
#1535
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,233
Thats because Mike S is old SWApA. Ask a few inside. But hey if Mike says they are good they must be.
11-04-2023, 07:24 PM
#1536
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,797
I've explained it a few times already, so here it is again...
Certain bases are tapped out because no more gates available so they can't originate more flights in and out of those airports. In case of DAL, they cannot fly international out of DAL, but they can out of DFW. The flying WILL happen out of those airports. That's not the question. The question is which base will cover that flying. The company stands to save money on hotel costs by having fewer layovers in those cities and shift it more to the pilot group to originate and terminate trips at the co-terminals. If you look at bid packets right now, you'll see that layovers at various bases still happen a fair amount. That's the benefit to the company....
The benefit to the pilot group is more choices at co-terminals and ability to grow the seniority list at those places i.e. stagnation being tied to company growth, not lack of gates.
1) For locals. According to SWAPA, roughly currently 300 pilots in each domicile live closer to proposed co-terminals, many whom will gladly bid that flying.
2) For commuters. Also our proposed co-terminals offer way more commute options for commuters than airports predominately served by us... that is if you can hold a co-terminal over the locals who will choose to bid it. For example, an OKC commuter to DAL has ZERO flights - has to drive or fly his own plane. Same with someone commuting from IND to MDW. However, from OKC to DFW, there are 9 flights a day, same with IND to ORD - 9 flights a day. Or if you live in a small town served by legacies and their RJ's but not by us. Take a BTR commuter for example.... it's an hour and a half drive to/from MSY to catch a SWA flight. Or it's 7 flights a day on UAL to IAH or 5 flights a day to DFW and skipping the drive to MSY altogether. In general, the three proposed co-terminals offer far more commute options. Check StaffTraveler app for the numbers.
Some myths to dispel....
No, you don't launch from a co-terminal and end up at base or vice versa. According to SWAPA, that's strictly prohibited. If you find yourself in this situation, the company will build you a double DH that you can get released from and pocket the DH money.
No, SoCal, NorCal, BWI/DC, MCO/TPA aren't happening. The company wanted them, SWAPA said no. If the company wants additional co-terminals, they can negotiate for them, but there's no blanket approval for them. If this turns crappy, why on earth would SWAPA allow more of them?
No, there is no taking away flying from bases and switching them to co-terminals. Why would we take away flying from established bases and shift it across town? The company has stated multiple times that flying out ORD and IAH right now targets a completely different population than we currently serve. 20% of the number of lines in base can be originated out of co-terminal. This leads me to believe that co-terminal flying will go way senior. Someone put it in an interest context. Right now, it won't be MDW that will grow, but it will be CHICAGO. To me, that's a definite distinction.
Loss of DH's. Why would we lose it? Do we not see DH's all over the place already to cover flying, DH's to overnights in established bases? Or already established trips overnighting in different pilot bases? Why would this be any different? Again, the company will cover the flying out of IAH, DFW and ORD. The question is which base gains those pairings and whom would they benefit? If you say there's zero benefit to local people, can't help ya... vote no. If you're a commuter and see no benefit to having way more options for your commute, really can't help ya.... vote no.
Every other airline pilot group has co-terminal language. SWAPA went through their language and addressed areas where they fall short. That's why someone in SWAPA said they wanted $1 but paid $3 in value for it. Personally, I'll be paying A LOT of attention to roadshows and ask a lot of questions.
I've said it before, I've said it again... this is sprinkles in the grand scheme of things. We've demanded a rewrite and not just a few improvements. Well.... welcome to the rewrite. PAY ATTENTION AND ASK QUESTIONS!
Vote yes, vote no, but be an informed voter.
Certain bases are tapped out because no more gates available so they can't originate more flights in and out of those airports. In case of DAL, they cannot fly international out of DAL, but they can out of DFW. The flying WILL happen out of those airports. That's not the question. The question is which base will cover that flying. The company stands to save money on hotel costs by having fewer layovers in those cities and shift it more to the pilot group to originate and terminate trips at the co-terminals. If you look at bid packets right now, you'll see that layovers at various bases still happen a fair amount. That's the benefit to the company....
The benefit to the pilot group is more choices at co-terminals and ability to grow the seniority list at those places i.e. stagnation being tied to company growth, not lack of gates.
1) For locals. According to SWAPA, roughly currently 300 pilots in each domicile live closer to proposed co-terminals, many whom will gladly bid that flying.
2) For commuters. Also our proposed co-terminals offer way more commute options for commuters than airports predominately served by us... that is if you can hold a co-terminal over the locals who will choose to bid it. For example, an OKC commuter to DAL has ZERO flights - has to drive or fly his own plane. Same with someone commuting from IND to MDW. However, from OKC to DFW, there are 9 flights a day, same with IND to ORD - 9 flights a day. Or if you live in a small town served by legacies and their RJ's but not by us. Take a BTR commuter for example.... it's an hour and a half drive to/from MSY to catch a SWA flight. Or it's 7 flights a day on UAL to IAH or 5 flights a day to DFW and skipping the drive to MSY altogether. In general, the three proposed co-terminals offer far more commute options. Check StaffTraveler app for the numbers.
Some myths to dispel....
No, you don't launch from a co-terminal and end up at base or vice versa. According to SWAPA, that's strictly prohibited. If you find yourself in this situation, the company will build you a double DH that you can get released from and pocket the DH money.
No, SoCal, NorCal, BWI/DC, MCO/TPA aren't happening. The company wanted them, SWAPA said no. If the company wants additional co-terminals, they can negotiate for them, but there's no blanket approval for them. If this turns crappy, why on earth would SWAPA allow more of them?
No, there is no taking away flying from bases and switching them to co-terminals. Why would we take away flying from established bases and shift it across town? The company has stated multiple times that flying out ORD and IAH right now targets a completely different population than we currently serve. 20% of the number of lines in base can be originated out of co-terminal. This leads me to believe that co-terminal flying will go way senior. Someone put it in an interest context. Right now, it won't be MDW that will grow, but it will be CHICAGO. To me, that's a definite distinction.
Loss of DH's. Why would we lose it? Do we not see DH's all over the place already to cover flying, DH's to overnights in established bases? Or already established trips overnighting in different pilot bases? Why would this be any different? Again, the company will cover the flying out of IAH, DFW and ORD. The question is which base gains those pairings and whom would they benefit? If you say there's zero benefit to local people, can't help ya... vote no. If you're a commuter and see no benefit to having way more options for your commute, really can't help ya.... vote no.
Every other airline pilot group has co-terminal language. SWAPA went through their language and addressed areas where they fall short. That's why someone in SWAPA said they wanted $1 but paid $3 in value for it. Personally, I'll be paying A LOT of attention to roadshows and ask a lot of questions.
I've said it before, I've said it again... this is sprinkles in the grand scheme of things. We've demanded a rewrite and not just a few improvements. Well.... welcome to the rewrite. PAY ATTENTION AND ASK QUESTIONS!
Vote yes, vote no, but be an informed voter.
I dont buy the bases are close to being tapped out. All of our bases will soon be maxed out. There is no guarantee a base will grow to infinity.
This reminds me of when the company floated suck buy back and all the senior guys immediately had numerous excuses of why we should all sell back our sick because they're sitting on 1000+ with 2 yrs to retire.
sorry not my problem. Same as co domiciles- not my problem the base will soon be maxed out. We all have options if senority is stagnant but selling out the rest of the group is not one of them.
no one is losing their job if we dont get CO domiciles so there us no reason for the concession.
11-04-2023, 07:30 PM
#1537
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,797
They said they needed to do this to break a log jam in negotiations. Our SAV vote should have done that, our pickets do that, the processes does that. We didn't need to give them anything and once done they heard about it and immediately regretted it so the sales job went into effect.
they knew they messed up with this concession, and it is by their own admission " we needed to give the company something to break the log jam in negotiations " that's a concession.
Just like how another rep defends not getting separate hotels.
it's like they take it personally and attack anyone who disagrees.
I've had several discussions with reps who told me my opinion is wrong because it went against what they were working on.
One thing is for sure, if the NC doesnt fix this stuff in AIP mode it's going to get pretty ugly. No one waited this long and went through the BS we did to not get everything we want.
11-04-2023, 08:03 PM
#1538
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Posts: 10
boy was he. Immediately all over the sales job.
They said they needed to do this to break a log jam in negotiations. Our SAV vote should have done that, our pickets do that, the processes does that. We didn't need to give them anything and once done they heard about it and immediately regretted it so the sales job went into effect.
they knew they messed up with this concession, and it is by their own admission " we needed to give the company something to break the log jam in negotiations " that's a concession.
Just like how another rep defends not getting separate hotels.
it's like they take it personally and attack anyone who disagrees.
I've had several discussions with reps who told me my opinion is wrong because it went against what they were working on.
One thing is for sure, if the NC doesnt fix this stuff in AIP mode it's going to get pretty ugly. No one waited this long and went through the BS we did to not get everything we want.
They said they needed to do this to break a log jam in negotiations. Our SAV vote should have done that, our pickets do that, the processes does that. We didn't need to give them anything and once done they heard about it and immediately regretted it so the sales job went into effect.
they knew they messed up with this concession, and it is by their own admission " we needed to give the company something to break the log jam in negotiations " that's a concession.
Just like how another rep defends not getting separate hotels.
it's like they take it personally and attack anyone who disagrees.
I've had several discussions with reps who told me my opinion is wrong because it went against what they were working on.
One thing is for sure, if the NC doesnt fix this stuff in AIP mode it's going to get pretty ugly. No one waited this long and went through the BS we did to not get everything we want.
There are a lot of us out here who have supported SWAPA throughout this process, who are suddenly finding themselves nervous about what the final product will look like.
11-04-2023, 08:26 PM
#1539
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: American Airlines Brake Pad Replacement Technician
Posts: 476
And yet
Within our own very ranks. We have our own SprinkleMen, ready, willing, and motivated to sell concessionarty topics like co-terminals.
Why even fund a road show / sales job
Within our own very ranks. We have our own SprinkleMen, ready, willing, and motivated to sell concessionarty topics like co-terminals.
Why even fund a road show / sales job
11-04-2023, 09:43 PM
#1540
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,763
DAL is tapped. Okay i get that. DAL cannot do international flights. Okay. So why is the answer to grow DAL by sending DAL people to DFW? How is DFW being a stand alone base not accomplishing the same thing? Those senior enough to bid DFW trips as you mentioned that live closer can just transfer to the DFW base and fly out of there. Those commuters that want more options can also bid it and have more options. Nothing that you mentioned is not possible with a stand alone base. Separating seniority by base allows for more artificial reletive seniority. Isn't that why we have the vacation bidding month shuffle every year? Jumbling all of that into one mega city base only hurts our seniority. You may be correct that those that benefit from this will be happy. But being on reserve will suck even more.
I hear the benefits of expanding to other airports. I don't see where the expansion in the form of Co Basing is better than a stand alone base. The answer is it is better for the company. It is cheaper for the company. And we take the hit on our QOL.
I hear the benefits of expanding to other airports. I don't see where the expansion in the form of Co Basing is better than a stand alone base. The answer is it is better for the company. It is cheaper for the company. And we take the hit on our QOL.
Separate open time. Separate bids. Less flexibility by not being able to ELITT in and out of trips. Less OT and reduced seniority for open time. Put yourself in this situation... you live equidistant to both airports. Do you want better ability to manipulate your schedule, or do you want to place more restrictions on you being able to manipulate your schedule?
One must consider this as well: co-terminals isn’t just for DAL and DFW. It’s been released that SWA is looking at options in the Metroplex other than DFW. There’s a big difference from DFW to AFW for example. Or McKinney.
What about being OAK based and having SFO and SJC assignments?
LAX, LGB, SNA, ONT?
What about being OAK based and having SFO and SJC assignments?
LAX, LGB, SNA, ONT?
we dont need co terminals to open another city. We do it all the time. That's all this is, is opening another city. It happens to be close to an existing base and the company sees how they can save money.
I dont buy the bases are close to being tapped out. All of our bases will soon be maxed out. There is no guarantee a base will grow to infinity.
This reminds me of when the company floated suck buy back and all the senior guys immediately had numerous excuses of why we should all sell back our sick because they're sitting on 1000+ with 2 yrs to retire.
sorry not my problem. Same as co domiciles- not my problem the base will soon be maxed out. We all have options if senority is stagnant but selling out the rest of the group is not one of them.
no one is losing their job if we dont get CO domiciles so there us no reason for the concession.
I dont buy the bases are close to being tapped out. All of our bases will soon be maxed out. There is no guarantee a base will grow to infinity.
This reminds me of when the company floated suck buy back and all the senior guys immediately had numerous excuses of why we should all sell back our sick because they're sitting on 1000+ with 2 yrs to retire.
sorry not my problem. Same as co domiciles- not my problem the base will soon be maxed out. We all have options if senority is stagnant but selling out the rest of the group is not one of them.
no one is losing their job if we dont get CO domiciles so there us no reason for the concession.
Like I said before, this ain't the hill to die on. But you know what is? Reigning Scheduling in and requiring them to use open time bidders to cover flying and stop burning through reserves. Scheduling would burn through their reserve by 1700 or even 1300 DOT close the previous day, and then it's reroute city for everyone. Screw what you bid for, or traded into for a very specific reason.... It's all about covering gross incompetence and mismanagement of resources by completely negating our seniority. To me, fighting that is one of the hills absolutely worth dying on. That's why I'm way more interested in hearing about LCO and what kind of obstacles and incentives we'll have to stop and prevent abrogation of our seniority by some 22 year old kid in Scheduling who's not allowed to question, let alone change the insanity their computer spits out.
I'll wait for the language and see the finished product before passing judgment. You guys may not be good with co-terminals, and so far I am... On the other hand, I have SERIOUS reservations about LCO and protections against the 22 year old kid in Scheduling and their sadistic tendencies. As the MiataMaster perfectly said, don't sell it, explain it. Open mind.... works wonders.
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