1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
11-04-2023, 05:16 AM
#1521
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: American Airlines Brake Pad Replacement Technician
Posts: 476
the Co Terminals fan boys are going to sink this TA.
For once, we should be demanding mind blowing instantly recognizable truly industry leading from our NC. And not be trying to sell language that's controversial or divisive.
BOD is the last element to Stop The Turd.
Gotta engage your reps. Otherwise it's coming.
For once, we should be demanding mind blowing instantly recognizable truly industry leading from our NC. And not be trying to sell language that's controversial or divisive.
BOD is the last element to Stop The Turd.
Gotta engage your reps. Otherwise it's coming.
11-04-2023, 05:31 AM
#1522
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,249
the Co Terminals fan boys are going to sink this TA.
For once, we should be demanding mind blowing instantly recognizable truly industry leading from our NC. And not be trying to sell language that's controversial or divisive.
BOD is the last element to Stop The Turd.
Gotta engage your reps. Otherwise it's coming.
For once, we should be demanding mind blowing instantly recognizable truly industry leading from our NC. And not be trying to sell language that's controversial or divisive.
BOD is the last element to Stop The Turd.
Gotta engage your reps. Otherwise it's coming.
11-04-2023, 06:50 AM
#1523
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
Exactly. MS is old SWApA. He isn’t yo be trusted at all. I wonder why the FAs didn’t agree to coterminals? They will add an MOU if we are dumb enough to add something that benefits 10%. They can fly out of any airport listed without coterminals. They already do all but one. They will fly out of DFW just fine without a DAL coterminal. They want it because it saves SWA money at the expense of the entire pilot group. The other 90%.
I would love to hear exactly how co basing improves our QOL and does not take away from it. Then explain how a stand alone base would not do the same.
11-04-2023, 08:30 AM
#1524
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
I suspect since their crew positions are interchangeable, and there enough of them, the company could just open a DFW FA base.
I’ve spoken with my reps, and while I think the polling on coterminals was poorly done and rushed, the feedback from them is that only the forum crowd that has major heartburn so far. That could change obviously when the full language is released but they think the limitations imposed on the company are adequate. Personally, I haven’t decided one way or the other yet, but if the road show turns into a sell job that would be a big red flag to me.
I’ve spoken with my reps, and while I think the polling on coterminals was poorly done and rushed, the feedback from them is that only the forum crowd that has major heartburn so far. That could change obviously when the full language is released but they think the limitations imposed on the company are adequate. Personally, I haven’t decided one way or the other yet, but if the road show turns into a sell job that would be a big red flag to me.
11-04-2023, 08:47 AM
#1525
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,795
It is obvious that this does our group nothing. It would absorb company cost at the expense of our QOL. We are already expecting industry leading wages and other work improvements. If this is accepted it will NEVER change back. DAL and DFW have been in management sights for years. Once the Wright ammendment is lifted this IS happening with or without this concession. What exactly is the pressing reason agreeing to somthing like this? Feels like negotiating fatuige settling in to be honest.
I would love to hear exactly how co basing improves our QOL and does not take away from it. Then explain how a stand alone base would not do the same.
I would love to hear exactly how co basing improves our QOL and does not take away from it. Then explain how a stand alone base would not do the same.
Certain bases are tapped out because no more gates available so they can't originate more flights in and out of those airports. In case of DAL, they cannot fly international out of DAL, but they can out of DFW. The flying WILL happen out of those airports. That's not the question. The question is which base will cover that flying. The company stands to save money on hotel costs by having fewer layovers in those cities and shift it more to the pilot group to originate and terminate trips at the co-terminals. If you look at bid packets right now, you'll see that layovers at various bases still happen a fair amount. That's the benefit to the company....
The benefit to the pilot group is more choices at co-terminals and ability to grow the seniority list at those places i.e. stagnation being tied to company growth, not lack of gates.
1) For locals. According to SWAPA, roughly currently 300 pilots in each domicile live closer to proposed co-terminals, many whom will gladly bid that flying.
2) For commuters. Also our proposed co-terminals offer way more commute options for commuters than airports predominately served by us... that is if you can hold a co-terminal over the locals who will choose to bid it. For example, an OKC commuter to DAL has ZERO flights - has to drive or fly his own plane. Same with someone commuting from IND to MDW. However, from OKC to DFW, there are 9 flights a day, same with IND to ORD - 9 flights a day. Or if you live in a small town served by legacies and their RJ's but not by us. Take a BTR commuter for example.... it's an hour and a half drive to/from MSY to catch a SWA flight. Or it's 7 flights a day on UAL to IAH or 5 flights a day to DFW and skipping the drive to MSY altogether. In general, the three proposed co-terminals offer far more commute options. Check StaffTraveler app for the numbers.
Some myths to dispel....
No, you don't launch from a co-terminal and end up at base or vice versa. According to SWAPA, that's strictly prohibited. If you find yourself in this situation, the company will build you a double DH that you can get released from and pocket the DH money.
No, SoCal, NorCal, BWI/DC, MCO/TPA aren't happening. The company wanted them, SWAPA said no. If the company wants additional co-terminals, they can negotiate for them, but there's no blanket approval for them. If this turns crappy, why on earth would SWAPA allow more of them?
No, there is no taking away flying from bases and switching them to co-terminals. Why would we take away flying from established bases and shift it across town? The company has stated multiple times that flying out ORD and IAH right now targets a completely different population than we currently serve. 20% of the number of lines in base can be originated out of co-terminal. This leads me to believe that co-terminal flying will go way senior. Someone put it in an interest context. Right now, it won't be MDW that will grow, but it will be CHICAGO. To me, that's a definite distinction.
Loss of DH's. Why would we lose it? Do we not see DH's all over the place already to cover flying, DH's to overnights in established bases? Or already established trips overnighting in different pilot bases? Why would this be any different? Again, the company will cover the flying out of IAH, DFW and ORD. The question is which base gains those pairings and whom would they benefit? If you say there's zero benefit to local people, can't help ya... vote no. If you're a commuter and see no benefit to having way more options for your commute, really can't help ya.... vote no.
Every other airline pilot group has co-terminal language. SWAPA went through their language and addressed areas where they fall short. That's why someone in SWAPA said they wanted $1 but paid $3 in value for it. Personally, I'll be paying A LOT of attention to roadshows and ask a lot of questions.
I've said it before, I've said it again... this is sprinkles in the grand scheme of things. We've demanded a rewrite and not just a few improvements. Well.... welcome to the rewrite. PAY ATTENTION AND ASK QUESTIONS!
Vote yes, vote no, but be an informed voter.
11-04-2023, 09:07 AM
#1526
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,189
Additionally, Santoro immediately came out on the defensive with a sell job for this concession.
That’s why so many pilots have been speaking up!
.
11-04-2023, 09:28 AM
#1527
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
I've explained it a few times already, so here it is again...
Certain bases are tapped out because no more gates available so they can't originate more flights in and out of those airports. In case of DAL, they cannot fly international out of DAL, but they can out of DFW. The flying WILL happen out of those airports. That's not the question. The question is which base will cover that flying. The company stands to save money on hotel costs by having fewer layovers in those cities and shift it more to the pilot group to originate and terminate trips at the co-terminals. If you look at bid packets right now, you'll see that layovers at various bases still happen a fair amount. That's the benefit to the company....
The benefit to the pilot group is more choices at co-terminals and ability to grow the seniority list at those places i.e. stagnation being tied to company growth, not lack of gates.
1) For locals. According to SWAPA, roughly currently 300 pilots in each domicile live closer to proposed co-terminals, many whom will gladly bid that flying.
2) For commuters. Also our proposed co-terminals offer way more commute options for commuters than airports predominately served by us... that is if you can hold a co-terminal over the locals who will choose to bid it. For example, an OKC commuter to DAL has ZERO flights - has to drive or fly his own plane. Same with someone commuting from IND to MDW. However, from OKC to DFW, there are 9 flights a day, same with IND to ORD - 9 flights a day. Or if you live in a small town served by legacies and their RJ's but not by us. Take a BTR commuter for example.... it's an hour and a half drive to/from MSY to catch a SWA flight. Or it's 7 flights a day on UAL to IAH or 5 flights a day to DFW and skipping the drive to MSY altogether. In general, the three proposed co-terminals offer far more commute options. Check StaffTraveler app for the numbers.
Some myths to dispel....
No, you don't launch from a co-terminal and end up at base or vice versa. According to SWAPA, that's strictly prohibited. If you find yourself in this situation, the company will build you a double DH that you can get released from and pocket the DH money.
No, SoCal, NorCal, BWI/DC, MCO/TPA aren't happening. The company wanted them, SWAPA said no. If the company wants additional co-terminals, they can negotiate for them, but there's no blanket approval for them. If this turns crappy, why on earth would SWAPA allow more of them?
No, there is no taking away flying from bases and switching them to co-terminals. Why would we take away flying from established bases and shift it across town? The company has stated multiple times that flying out ORD and IAH right now targets a completely different population than we currently serve. 20% of the number of lines in base can be originated out of co-terminal. This leads me to believe that co-terminal flying will go way senior. Someone put it in an interest context. Right now, it won't be MDW that will grow, but it will be CHICAGO. To me, that's a definite distinction.
Loss of DH's. Why would we lose it? Do we not see DH's all over the place already to cover flying, DH's to overnights in established bases? Or already established trips overnighting in different pilot bases? Why would this be any different? Again, the company will cover the flying out of IAH, DFW and ORD. The question is which base gains those pairings and whom would they benefit? If you say there's zero benefit to local people, can't help ya... vote no. If you're a commuter and see no benefit to having way more options for your commute, really can't help ya.... vote no.
Every other airline pilot group has co-terminal language. SWAPA went through their language and addressed areas where they fall short. That's why someone in SWAPA said they wanted $1 but paid $3 in value for it. Personally, I'll be paying A LOT of attention to roadshows and ask a lot of questions.
I've said it before, I've said it again... this is sprinkles in the grand scheme of things. We've demanded a rewrite and not just a few improvements. Well.... welcome to the rewrite. PAY ATTENTION AND ASK QUESTIONS!
Vote yes, vote no, but be an informed voter.
Certain bases are tapped out because no more gates available so they can't originate more flights in and out of those airports. In case of DAL, they cannot fly international out of DAL, but they can out of DFW. The flying WILL happen out of those airports. That's not the question. The question is which base will cover that flying. The company stands to save money on hotel costs by having fewer layovers in those cities and shift it more to the pilot group to originate and terminate trips at the co-terminals. If you look at bid packets right now, you'll see that layovers at various bases still happen a fair amount. That's the benefit to the company....
The benefit to the pilot group is more choices at co-terminals and ability to grow the seniority list at those places i.e. stagnation being tied to company growth, not lack of gates.
1) For locals. According to SWAPA, roughly currently 300 pilots in each domicile live closer to proposed co-terminals, many whom will gladly bid that flying.
2) For commuters. Also our proposed co-terminals offer way more commute options for commuters than airports predominately served by us... that is if you can hold a co-terminal over the locals who will choose to bid it. For example, an OKC commuter to DAL has ZERO flights - has to drive or fly his own plane. Same with someone commuting from IND to MDW. However, from OKC to DFW, there are 9 flights a day, same with IND to ORD - 9 flights a day. Or if you live in a small town served by legacies and their RJ's but not by us. Take a BTR commuter for example.... it's an hour and a half drive to/from MSY to catch a SWA flight. Or it's 7 flights a day on UAL to IAH or 5 flights a day to DFW and skipping the drive to MSY altogether. In general, the three proposed co-terminals offer far more commute options. Check StaffTraveler app for the numbers.
Some myths to dispel....
No, you don't launch from a co-terminal and end up at base or vice versa. According to SWAPA, that's strictly prohibited. If you find yourself in this situation, the company will build you a double DH that you can get released from and pocket the DH money.
No, SoCal, NorCal, BWI/DC, MCO/TPA aren't happening. The company wanted them, SWAPA said no. If the company wants additional co-terminals, they can negotiate for them, but there's no blanket approval for them. If this turns crappy, why on earth would SWAPA allow more of them?
No, there is no taking away flying from bases and switching them to co-terminals. Why would we take away flying from established bases and shift it across town? The company has stated multiple times that flying out ORD and IAH right now targets a completely different population than we currently serve. 20% of the number of lines in base can be originated out of co-terminal. This leads me to believe that co-terminal flying will go way senior. Someone put it in an interest context. Right now, it won't be MDW that will grow, but it will be CHICAGO. To me, that's a definite distinction.
Loss of DH's. Why would we lose it? Do we not see DH's all over the place already to cover flying, DH's to overnights in established bases? Or already established trips overnighting in different pilot bases? Why would this be any different? Again, the company will cover the flying out of IAH, DFW and ORD. The question is which base gains those pairings and whom would they benefit? If you say there's zero benefit to local people, can't help ya... vote no. If you're a commuter and see no benefit to having way more options for your commute, really can't help ya.... vote no.
Every other airline pilot group has co-terminal language. SWAPA went through their language and addressed areas where they fall short. That's why someone in SWAPA said they wanted $1 but paid $3 in value for it. Personally, I'll be paying A LOT of attention to roadshows and ask a lot of questions.
I've said it before, I've said it again... this is sprinkles in the grand scheme of things. We've demanded a rewrite and not just a few improvements. Well.... welcome to the rewrite. PAY ATTENTION AND ASK QUESTIONS!
Vote yes, vote no, but be an informed voter.
I hear the benefits of expanding to other airports. I don't see where the expansion in the form of Co Basing is better than a stand alone base. The answer is it is better for the company. It is cheaper for the company. And we take the hit on our QOL.
11-04-2023, 11:14 AM
#1528
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,821
One must consider this as well: co-terminals isn’t just for DAL and DFW. It’s been released that SWA is looking at options in the Metroplex other than DFW. There’s a big difference from DFW to AFW for example. Or McKinney.
What about being OAK based and having SFO and SJC assignments?
LAX, LGB, SNA, ONT?
We’re talking ridiculous traffic during certain hours.
Why can’t this be an MOU AFTER we get an industry leading contract? Use that as leverage.
Show me the money in my account, then we talk about co-domiciles.
What about being OAK based and having SFO and SJC assignments?
LAX, LGB, SNA, ONT?
We’re talking ridiculous traffic during certain hours.
Why can’t this be an MOU AFTER we get an industry leading contract? Use that as leverage.
Show me the money in my account, then we talk about co-domiciles.
11-04-2023, 11:20 AM
#1529
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
One thing is certain. The roadshows ought to be entertaining. I don’t envy the SWAPA comm folks who are going to have to stand up in the face of all this vitriol and educate the group on a TA while the company negotiators get to sit back and wait to see what happens.
11-04-2023, 12:28 PM
#1530
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,831
One thing is certain. The roadshows ought to be entertaining. I don’t envy the SWAPA comm folks who are going to have to stand up in the face of all this vitriol and educate the group on a TA while the company negotiators get to sit back and wait to see what happens.
🔥👇
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