1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
09-28-2023, 06:51 AM
#1281
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
The reaction has been absolutely comical. For those of you who get off on telling new hires to go to Delta/United/American, they already have this language and it's actually worse than what seems to be proposed here, but I digress....
It cracks me up that people think that co-terminal lines will go junior and that this would only benefit the select few who live closer to those airports and no one else, that it's somehow a concession to all but 300 or so pilots one guy said. Wow....
Some reality checks:
Can't grow MDW anymore - no more real estate.
Can't grow DAL anymore - no more real estate and can't fly international.
HOU is stalled with a terminal construction and will be stalled by prolonged runway closure.
We have what, 4 gates at ORD? 3 at IAH? And 0 at DFW? You really think we can just snap our fingers and get 10 more at each place? The only place that that may happen at would be DFW, and that's a big maybe.
Now, let's take a look at who would want to bid pairings at co-terminals.
If you're a line holder who lives closer to DFW or ORD or IAH, you'd probably want to bid those or ELITT into them or trade into them. I know I would. It cracks me up to see so many crying bloody murder because they themselves happen to live on the opposite end, but are crying bloody murder because "they don't want to drive another hour" while they don't even acknowledge the possibility that there are just as many people driving that extra hour to our regular base who would want this. But those who drive past the proposed co-terminal to our regular base don't matter at all. How about those who now would gain an extra hour?
If you're a commuter, how many carriers serve HOU, DAL and MDW vs. IAH, DFW and ORD? And from where? Ran into a MEM commuter the other day and asked him how his commute was going... he whipped out his phone and showed me on Staff Traveler, we literally had 1 flight a day to each place, and I think MDW had 2 total, the rest he had to two leg it... conversely, OAL's had multiple flights a day to/from each and then he'd Uber to our airport. and no Fedex doesn't fly to MDW, DAL, or HOU, but rather ORD, DFW, and IAH. We haven't talked about this, but I can imagine where he stands on co-terminals as a commuter.
Or another friend who commutes from BTR to DAL.... he has to drive an hour and a half to MSY to hop on us to DAL because we don't serve BTR. Conversely, 6 flights a day on AA out of there to DFW. His commuter life stands to improve dramatically as well.
Does anyone sane really think co-terminal flying would go junior?! Ah yes... reserves! "I don't want to fly out of ORD.... I've got my crashpad in the ghetto near MDW." People seem to miss the tidbit about proffering of trips on reserve, but the language hasn't been released on how it'll work though from what I gather, you'll have a say in what you'd like to fly, and chances are if you don't want co-terminal flying, you probably won't have to do it due to proffering, but then again, we haven't seen the language yet, so...... jumping the gun a little prematurely?
Seriously... this doesn't sway me one way or another. I'll save my drama for the Benefits, pay rates, retirement and major work rule issues... to me, this is sprinkles and wouldn't affect how I vote on any TA.
It cracks me up that people think that co-terminal lines will go junior and that this would only benefit the select few who live closer to those airports and no one else, that it's somehow a concession to all but 300 or so pilots one guy said. Wow....
Some reality checks:
Can't grow MDW anymore - no more real estate.
Can't grow DAL anymore - no more real estate and can't fly international.
HOU is stalled with a terminal construction and will be stalled by prolonged runway closure.
We have what, 4 gates at ORD? 3 at IAH? And 0 at DFW? You really think we can just snap our fingers and get 10 more at each place? The only place that that may happen at would be DFW, and that's a big maybe.
Now, let's take a look at who would want to bid pairings at co-terminals.
If you're a line holder who lives closer to DFW or ORD or IAH, you'd probably want to bid those or ELITT into them or trade into them. I know I would. It cracks me up to see so many crying bloody murder because they themselves happen to live on the opposite end, but are crying bloody murder because "they don't want to drive another hour" while they don't even acknowledge the possibility that there are just as many people driving that extra hour to our regular base who would want this. But those who drive past the proposed co-terminal to our regular base don't matter at all. How about those who now would gain an extra hour?
If you're a commuter, how many carriers serve HOU, DAL and MDW vs. IAH, DFW and ORD? And from where? Ran into a MEM commuter the other day and asked him how his commute was going... he whipped out his phone and showed me on Staff Traveler, we literally had 1 flight a day to each place, and I think MDW had 2 total, the rest he had to two leg it... conversely, OAL's had multiple flights a day to/from each and then he'd Uber to our airport. and no Fedex doesn't fly to MDW, DAL, or HOU, but rather ORD, DFW, and IAH. We haven't talked about this, but I can imagine where he stands on co-terminals as a commuter.
Or another friend who commutes from BTR to DAL.... he has to drive an hour and a half to MSY to hop on us to DAL because we don't serve BTR. Conversely, 6 flights a day on AA out of there to DFW. His commuter life stands to improve dramatically as well.
Does anyone sane really think co-terminal flying would go junior?! Ah yes... reserves! "I don't want to fly out of ORD.... I've got my crashpad in the ghetto near MDW." People seem to miss the tidbit about proffering of trips on reserve, but the language hasn't been released on how it'll work though from what I gather, you'll have a say in what you'd like to fly, and chances are if you don't want co-terminal flying, you probably won't have to do it due to proffering, but then again, we haven't seen the language yet, so...... jumping the gun a little prematurely?
Seriously... this doesn't sway me one way or another. I'll save my drama for the Benefits, pay rates, retirement and major work rule issues... to me, this is sprinkles and wouldn't affect how I vote on any TA.
09-28-2023, 07:57 AM
#1282
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,233
Question for the group.
What are the chances the company wants a deal before the new SWAPA Board is seated?
Maybe they're afraid the new BOD is more militant and could dig their feet in, and the devil they know if better than the devil they don't know?
Coukd that explain their sudden desire to wrap things up?
What are the chances the company wants a deal before the new SWAPA Board is seated?
Maybe they're afraid the new BOD is more militant and could dig their feet in, and the devil they know if better than the devil they don't know?
Coukd that explain their sudden desire to wrap things up?
09-28-2023, 08:00 AM
#1283
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,233
The whining few OTOF have generally been spot on in the analysis of what's to come from previous SWApA missteps. I am on the sidelines mostly about this. With the exception of if the company wants it. Its a concession.
09-28-2023, 08:01 AM
#1284
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
This.
Right now I'm tentatively opposed to the idea because I commute to reserve in one of the bases that's included in the co terminal proposal. So I would really want to see the language for protections.
If the protections are good enough, I have no problem with this at all, as my crashpad is within 30-60 minutes of either airport (traffic). And it might actually make it easier because one of the airports has way more flights than the other. The flights, however, are offline, hence why I want to see the language.
Now, all that being said, I'm also considering moving back to the co terminal to which I currently commute to (family reasons). Were I to do that, I would have absolutely no problem with this either knowing that the places I want to live are within an hour or two of both airports. If the new airport ends up being more junior, I might actually like that as it would give me an artificial seniority boost. The company and swapa have stated that parking would be covered in both airports (again, need to see the language).
I also reject the "double deadhead to cross town happens all the time". I've personally never seen that happen, and realistically the only time I've ever really seen it "in the wild" is for California bases, which aren't included in this deal.
Bottom line, I think the biggest potentials for problems are going to be a: the unknown factor of whether people will get involuntarily forced into doing co terminal flying, b: reserve language and protections, and c: second round line composition.
There are lots of people who live in my base who will absolutely love this. If there are enough people who like this, then this is a positive. If tons of people get involuntarily "displaced", it won't be.
Swapa bungled the education and polling on this though. There should have been base specific polling on how many people in each seat were for, neutral, or against opening up a co terminal in their respective bases. That wasn't done and now they're playing catch up after a section was already AIPed.
That makes it look like damage control, which makes it seem like they're polishing a concessionary turd, which brings up waaay too many memories of swapa of old. It's not a good look, and the membership is justified in being angry about the process, even if this is a net positive gain.
Right now I'm tentatively opposed to the idea because I commute to reserve in one of the bases that's included in the co terminal proposal. So I would really want to see the language for protections.
If the protections are good enough, I have no problem with this at all, as my crashpad is within 30-60 minutes of either airport (traffic). And it might actually make it easier because one of the airports has way more flights than the other. The flights, however, are offline, hence why I want to see the language.
Now, all that being said, I'm also considering moving back to the co terminal to which I currently commute to (family reasons). Were I to do that, I would have absolutely no problem with this either knowing that the places I want to live are within an hour or two of both airports. If the new airport ends up being more junior, I might actually like that as it would give me an artificial seniority boost. The company and swapa have stated that parking would be covered in both airports (again, need to see the language).
I also reject the "double deadhead to cross town happens all the time". I've personally never seen that happen, and realistically the only time I've ever really seen it "in the wild" is for California bases, which aren't included in this deal.
Bottom line, I think the biggest potentials for problems are going to be a: the unknown factor of whether people will get involuntarily forced into doing co terminal flying, b: reserve language and protections, and c: second round line composition.
There are lots of people who live in my base who will absolutely love this. If there are enough people who like this, then this is a positive. If tons of people get involuntarily "displaced", it won't be.
Swapa bungled the education and polling on this though. There should have been base specific polling on how many people in each seat were for, neutral, or against opening up a co terminal in their respective bases. That wasn't done and now they're playing catch up after a section was already AIPed.
That makes it look like damage control, which makes it seem like they're polishing a concessionary turd, which brings up waaay too many memories of swapa of old. It's not a good look, and the membership is justified in being angry about the process, even if this is a net positive gain.
we’ll see how popular this is during TA2 polling.
09-28-2023, 08:02 AM
#1285
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,233
It cracks me up that people think that co-terminal lines will go junior and that this would only benefit the select few who live closer to those airports and no one else, that it's somehow a concession to all but 300 or so pilots one guy said. Wow....
09-28-2023, 08:14 AM
#1286
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
How does this go bad considering why the company wants this in the first place (no way to expand), the logistics of it (no gate space available at proposed co-terminals), the timing of it (how many years until the gates become available), at least some of the language that's been released? It's all about the language... and in any case, people losing their sh*t over this is indicative of our group's inability to read and comprehend more than a line. This is how turds get passed because people get enamored with or lose their sh*t over sprinkles, but completely fail to pay attention to the quality of the steak. Right now, this is sprinkles... we haven't seen the steak, nor the potatoes, nor the veggies or the salad.
09-28-2023, 08:24 AM
#1287
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2023
Posts: 250
the whining few really haven’t been spot on about much. They are just paranoid and closed minded. Just because the company wants something doesn’t make it a concession (it’s not even close to one). Funny how LTD hasn’t even gotten this much attention. This pilot group needs to evolve and accept that’s in order for things to change for the better, we need to be more open minded.
09-28-2023, 08:44 AM
#1288
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 466
The reaction has been absolutely comical. For those of you who get off on telling new hires to go to Delta/United/American, they already have this language and it's actually worse than what seems to be proposed here, but I digress....
It cracks me up that people think that co-terminal lines will go junior and that this would only benefit the select few who live closer to those airports and no one else, that it's somehow a concession to all but 300 or so pilots one guy said. Wow....
Some reality checks:
Can't grow MDW anymore - no more real estate.
Can't grow DAL anymore - no more real estate and can't fly international.
HOU is stalled with a terminal construction and will be stalled by prolonged runway closure.
We have what, 4 gates at ORD? 3 at IAH? And 0 at DFW? You really think we can just snap our fingers and get 10 more at each place? The only place that that may happen at would be DFW, and that's a big maybe.
Now, let's take a look at who would want to bid pairings at co-terminals.
If you're a line holder who lives closer to DFW or ORD or IAH, you'd probably want to bid those or ELITT into them or trade into them. I know I would. It cracks me up to see so many crying bloody murder because they themselves happen to live on the opposite end, but are crying bloody murder because "they don't want to drive another hour" while they don't even acknowledge the possibility that there are just as many people driving that extra hour to our regular base who would want this. But those who drive past the proposed co-terminal to our regular base don't matter at all. How about those who now would gain an extra hour?
If you're a commuter, how many carriers serve HOU, DAL and MDW vs. IAH, DFW and ORD? And from where? Ran into a MEM commuter the other day and asked him how his commute was going... he whipped out his phone and showed me on Staff Traveler, we literally had 1 flight a day to each place, and I think MDW had 2 total, the rest he had to two leg it... conversely, OAL's had multiple flights a day to/from each and then he'd Uber to our airport. and no Fedex doesn't fly to MDW, DAL, or HOU, but rather ORD, DFW, and IAH. We haven't talked about this, but I can imagine where he stands on co-terminals as a commuter.
Or another friend who commutes from BTR to DAL.... he has to drive an hour and a half to MSY to hop on us to DAL because we don't serve BTR. Conversely, 6 flights a day on AA out of there to DFW. His commuter life stands to improve dramatically as well.
Does anyone sane really think co-terminal flying would go junior?! Ah yes... reserves! "I don't want to fly out of ORD.... I've got my crashpad in the ghetto near MDW." People seem to miss the tidbit about proffering of trips on reserve, but the language hasn't been released on how it'll work though from what I gather, you'll have a say in what you'd like to fly, and chances are if you don't want co-terminal flying, you probably won't have to do it due to proffering, but then again, we haven't seen the language yet, so...... jumping the gun a little prematurely?
Seriously... this doesn't sway me one way or another. I'll save my drama for the Benefits, pay rates, retirement and major work rule issues... to me, this is sprinkles and wouldn't affect how I vote on any TA.
It cracks me up that people think that co-terminal lines will go junior and that this would only benefit the select few who live closer to those airports and no one else, that it's somehow a concession to all but 300 or so pilots one guy said. Wow....
Some reality checks:
Can't grow MDW anymore - no more real estate.
Can't grow DAL anymore - no more real estate and can't fly international.
HOU is stalled with a terminal construction and will be stalled by prolonged runway closure.
We have what, 4 gates at ORD? 3 at IAH? And 0 at DFW? You really think we can just snap our fingers and get 10 more at each place? The only place that that may happen at would be DFW, and that's a big maybe.
Now, let's take a look at who would want to bid pairings at co-terminals.
If you're a line holder who lives closer to DFW or ORD or IAH, you'd probably want to bid those or ELITT into them or trade into them. I know I would. It cracks me up to see so many crying bloody murder because they themselves happen to live on the opposite end, but are crying bloody murder because "they don't want to drive another hour" while they don't even acknowledge the possibility that there are just as many people driving that extra hour to our regular base who would want this. But those who drive past the proposed co-terminal to our regular base don't matter at all. How about those who now would gain an extra hour?
If you're a commuter, how many carriers serve HOU, DAL and MDW vs. IAH, DFW and ORD? And from where? Ran into a MEM commuter the other day and asked him how his commute was going... he whipped out his phone and showed me on Staff Traveler, we literally had 1 flight a day to each place, and I think MDW had 2 total, the rest he had to two leg it... conversely, OAL's had multiple flights a day to/from each and then he'd Uber to our airport. and no Fedex doesn't fly to MDW, DAL, or HOU, but rather ORD, DFW, and IAH. We haven't talked about this, but I can imagine where he stands on co-terminals as a commuter.
Or another friend who commutes from BTR to DAL.... he has to drive an hour and a half to MSY to hop on us to DAL because we don't serve BTR. Conversely, 6 flights a day on AA out of there to DFW. His commuter life stands to improve dramatically as well.
Does anyone sane really think co-terminal flying would go junior?! Ah yes... reserves! "I don't want to fly out of ORD.... I've got my crashpad in the ghetto near MDW." People seem to miss the tidbit about proffering of trips on reserve, but the language hasn't been released on how it'll work though from what I gather, you'll have a say in what you'd like to fly, and chances are if you don't want co-terminal flying, you probably won't have to do it due to proffering, but then again, we haven't seen the language yet, so...... jumping the gun a little prematurely?
Seriously... this doesn't sway me one way or another. I'll save my drama for the Benefits, pay rates, retirement and major work rule issues... to me, this is sprinkles and wouldn't affect how I vote on any TA.
Finally some fresh air common sense posts. What a relief from the usual NO!! echo chamber on here. SWAPA could secure $400 tfp and some on here would still find a way to cry.
09-28-2023, 09:07 AM
#1289
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,233
Its all in the details. Be blinded by $400TFP and you would pay. Just vote yes! I complain after its done like the majority. I say when did that change how can they do that? Did you read what you voted yes too?
09-28-2023, 10:06 AM
#1290
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
off topic, what's the deal with jamming napkins into the storage bins in the cockpit? Why do we need so many napkins?! 🤪
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