1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
09-02-2023, 06:40 AM
#1081
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Posts: 398
Yes, we need to bring back prescreening of applicants to not waste time. Here's what my bros on the interview team say... after verifying your basic qualifications and verifying your ability to follow instructions on the application, if you're devoid of a pleasant personality, if you're a sourpuss and unable to crack a smile and relax, if you come across as cocky and arrogant, if you're oozing "ok b00mer" attitude, you won't get past them. Even if you're a Boeing 737 guru, and come across like a jerk, you're not getting by them.
Remember, it's the pilots doing the hiring of pilots here. After verifying the basics, really, all they're looking for are the answers to these questions....
Would I be willing to fly with this person on a challenging 4-day trip?
Would I want to jump out the window after flying with this person, or would this person make a crappy 4-day trip be less painful?
Would this person be able to get through our training?
That's really all it boils down to, and if you can look yourself in the mirror and do an honest self assessment, you'll realize it doesn't matter if you're a Mesa guy or ATI girl, or low time 121, or corporate... the question is, do you make easy hard? If you do, our guys and gals are trained to spot it, and you won't get in.
I also mentioned training and whether you'd be able to get through training. All boils down to your attitude. The type of personality who never accepts responsibility and always looks to shift blame to others doesn't do well in our training. We don't have our check airmen dress us up and down after a session... we do it ourselves with the check airman merely facilitating the discussion - the trainees are the ones leading it as a crew. Again, nothing to do with Mesa or ATI or who your current employer is.
Hope this is helpful to someone.
Remember, it's the pilots doing the hiring of pilots here. After verifying the basics, really, all they're looking for are the answers to these questions....
Would I be willing to fly with this person on a challenging 4-day trip?
Would I want to jump out the window after flying with this person, or would this person make a crappy 4-day trip be less painful?
Would this person be able to get through our training?
That's really all it boils down to, and if you can look yourself in the mirror and do an honest self assessment, you'll realize it doesn't matter if you're a Mesa guy or ATI girl, or low time 121, or corporate... the question is, do you make easy hard? If you do, our guys and gals are trained to spot it, and you won't get in.
I also mentioned training and whether you'd be able to get through training. All boils down to your attitude. The type of personality who never accepts responsibility and always looks to shift blame to others doesn't do well in our training. We don't have our check airmen dress us up and down after a session... we do it ourselves with the check airman merely facilitating the discussion - the trainees are the ones leading it as a crew. Again, nothing to do with Mesa or ATI or who your current employer is.
Hope this is helpful to someone.
09-05-2023, 06:23 AM
#1082
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 239
Brutal,
September 4, 2023
The Absence of Labor
Casey Murray, President SWAPA
On my Labor Day update a year ago, I began by asking the question, “How does Southwest consider labor versus capital today?” What followed was a recap of Southwest’s recent history of putting profits over people with the assertion that they had become a Company supported by its employees, instead of supporting them, and the prediction that the Company would reinstate the dividend to Wall Street prior to ratifying a new CBA for us.
How have things progressed since then? On the second quarter earnings call, CEO Bob Jordan highlighted the fact that they have ratified seven labor contracts in the previous nine months. And they most recently have shown a new urgency in our negotiations. While I am cautiously optimistic, this doesn’t change the fact that we have had 244 Pilots leave Southwest for our competitors since September 5, 2022, and our CBA is 1,098 days past its amendable date. Clearly, Pilot morale is at an all-time low thanks to the years-long negotiating process made even more frustrating when contrasted with the progress that our peers have made during that same timeframe and coupled with a line working environment that is strained even on the best of days.
Last October, Wall Street analyst Jamie Baker of J.P. Morgan coined the phrase “Deals Before Dividends” while he sat on a panel at SWAPA’s International Conference of Pilot Unions. We found that expression to be very apropos of our situation, so it was printed on a majority of our picket signs that we displayed on Wall Street on the day that Southwest officers rang the closing bell after announcing the resumption of the dividend. When an investment analyst whose company stands to gain from a dividend payment declares that it would be better served if the Pilots' contract was finished prior to the dividend, you have to wonder why the Company has been so hellbent on doing just the opposite.
Because the Company does not appreciate the value of labor, what they get instead is the absence of it. We are kept at arms length when our data-driven analysis shows how our scheduling proposals can help with both efficiency and cost savings. Their refusal to mitigate the often-nonsensical solutions that are created by SkySolver has led to unprecedented levels of fatigue, while Pilots bidding for Open Time are left on the sidelines, absent from the solution. The SWA board of dierctors celebrates the complete absence of labor input to hold in check their greed and avarice. Their decision to pay management bonuses worth $9 million just weeks after the Christmas meltdown cost our Company $1.2 billion and rewarded those who were responsible for slashing our employees' annual profit sharing in half. Moreover, the decision to continue to reward Wall Street with $214 million in dividends so far this year, despite the operational losses over the Christmas Flightmare, reaffirms that customers, both internal and external, are a secondary consideration.
The absence of labor input is not felt solely at the top. It trickles down through the Company’s stovepipe structure and is most acutely felt by us online every day, most notably in schedule reroutes. There must be a reckoning with the way that Scheduling management is allowed to run roughshod over not just the day-to-day operation, but also the ridiculous amount of waste that occurs from the scheduled plan to the final execution. It's a gigantic black hole of loss, which dings our profit sharing and has led to unprecedented percentages of fatigue and encourages us to resign, either literally or figuratively, to apathy and membership in the 5/20 Club. There also needs to be the same reckoning with the way we are treated by Labor Relations on the enforcement side of an eventual C2020. The C-suite’s laissez-faire attitude toward negotiations and preceding years of contract administration abuse must change. Business as usual cannot continue if Southwest is to succeed in the future.
Today, many of you are off and enjoying time with your friends and family. Even so, many others are flying the line, some doing so thanks to a forced JA assignment. Because we continue to labor under our outdated scheduling rules and processes, we have suffered far too many lost days, missed family events, and calls that begin with, “I’m sorry I won’t be home tonight.”
It’s Labor Day and once again we find ourselves dealing with an entrenched mindset that sees only the cost of everything and the value of nothing. It’s past time that the Company recognize our worth and the value that our labor provides. Otherwise, the absence of labor, whether through apathy, resignation, or a withdrawal of services in the form of a strike, will continue to erode what was once an admired airline that put its people above profits, long-term vision over short-term metrics, and internal customers first.
Case
September 4, 2023
The Absence of Labor
Casey Murray, President SWAPA
On my Labor Day update a year ago, I began by asking the question, “How does Southwest consider labor versus capital today?” What followed was a recap of Southwest’s recent history of putting profits over people with the assertion that they had become a Company supported by its employees, instead of supporting them, and the prediction that the Company would reinstate the dividend to Wall Street prior to ratifying a new CBA for us.
How have things progressed since then? On the second quarter earnings call, CEO Bob Jordan highlighted the fact that they have ratified seven labor contracts in the previous nine months. And they most recently have shown a new urgency in our negotiations. While I am cautiously optimistic, this doesn’t change the fact that we have had 244 Pilots leave Southwest for our competitors since September 5, 2022, and our CBA is 1,098 days past its amendable date. Clearly, Pilot morale is at an all-time low thanks to the years-long negotiating process made even more frustrating when contrasted with the progress that our peers have made during that same timeframe and coupled with a line working environment that is strained even on the best of days.
Last October, Wall Street analyst Jamie Baker of J.P. Morgan coined the phrase “Deals Before Dividends” while he sat on a panel at SWAPA’s International Conference of Pilot Unions. We found that expression to be very apropos of our situation, so it was printed on a majority of our picket signs that we displayed on Wall Street on the day that Southwest officers rang the closing bell after announcing the resumption of the dividend. When an investment analyst whose company stands to gain from a dividend payment declares that it would be better served if the Pilots' contract was finished prior to the dividend, you have to wonder why the Company has been so hellbent on doing just the opposite.
Because the Company does not appreciate the value of labor, what they get instead is the absence of it. We are kept at arms length when our data-driven analysis shows how our scheduling proposals can help with both efficiency and cost savings. Their refusal to mitigate the often-nonsensical solutions that are created by SkySolver has led to unprecedented levels of fatigue, while Pilots bidding for Open Time are left on the sidelines, absent from the solution. The SWA board of dierctors celebrates the complete absence of labor input to hold in check their greed and avarice. Their decision to pay management bonuses worth $9 million just weeks after the Christmas meltdown cost our Company $1.2 billion and rewarded those who were responsible for slashing our employees' annual profit sharing in half. Moreover, the decision to continue to reward Wall Street with $214 million in dividends so far this year, despite the operational losses over the Christmas Flightmare, reaffirms that customers, both internal and external, are a secondary consideration.
The absence of labor input is not felt solely at the top. It trickles down through the Company’s stovepipe structure and is most acutely felt by us online every day, most notably in schedule reroutes. There must be a reckoning with the way that Scheduling management is allowed to run roughshod over not just the day-to-day operation, but also the ridiculous amount of waste that occurs from the scheduled plan to the final execution. It's a gigantic black hole of loss, which dings our profit sharing and has led to unprecedented percentages of fatigue and encourages us to resign, either literally or figuratively, to apathy and membership in the 5/20 Club. There also needs to be the same reckoning with the way we are treated by Labor Relations on the enforcement side of an eventual C2020. The C-suite’s laissez-faire attitude toward negotiations and preceding years of contract administration abuse must change. Business as usual cannot continue if Southwest is to succeed in the future.
Today, many of you are off and enjoying time with your friends and family. Even so, many others are flying the line, some doing so thanks to a forced JA assignment. Because we continue to labor under our outdated scheduling rules and processes, we have suffered far too many lost days, missed family events, and calls that begin with, “I’m sorry I won’t be home tonight.”
It’s Labor Day and once again we find ourselves dealing with an entrenched mindset that sees only the cost of everything and the value of nothing. It’s past time that the Company recognize our worth and the value that our labor provides. Otherwise, the absence of labor, whether through apathy, resignation, or a withdrawal of services in the form of a strike, will continue to erode what was once an admired airline that put its people above profits, long-term vision over short-term metrics, and internal customers first.
Case
09-05-2023, 08:36 AM
#1083
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,153
The "uncensored" FB culture 2.0 page has a new rant slamming nonrev pax who dare to attempt to preboard. Nevermind that there are multiple nonrev classes that are specifically designated as preboard, the tribalism is on FIRE in a specific SWA subculture. They'll do literally anything to avoid helping out a co-worker.
09-05-2023, 09:26 AM
#1084
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,797
The "uncensored" FB culture 2.0 page has a new rant slamming nonrev pax who dare to attempt to preboard. Nevermind that there are multiple nonrev classes that are specifically designated as preboard, the tribalism is on FIRE in a specific SWA subculture. They'll do literally anything to avoid helping out a co-worker.
99% dont even blink an eye when allowing you to pre board.
09-05-2023, 09:30 AM
#1085
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,771
PHX has some that I swear are either dumb, ignorant or just out to screw with you as much as possible, even when shown they are wrong. I dont understand why they care so much lol, but hey I will take my free TFP money for not letting me pre-board when I am supposed to.
09-05-2023, 10:31 AM
#1086
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
There’s a podcast called Pro Pilot Playbook. In their August 29th episode, in a segment regarding hiring, they said that they don’t consider Southwest to be on par with a legacy airline career. They went on to say that nobody at Southwest can make the money that legacy airline counterparts earn. Now, forget for a moment the difference in work required, this is demonstrably false.
But this is the perception in the industry right now and it’s getting out to job seekers through the channels that young job seekers use to research employment.
Thats a problem for me and you because when the dust settles and the contract is signed we want the best and brightest, most experienced and highly qualified pilots that SWA can possibly recruit sitting next to us. We don’t want the left overs or those with skeletons in their closet that can’t go anywhere else.
I don’t pretend to know where Pro Pilot Playbook gets their information, but I think that while there is value in highlighting the areas where our CBA lags our peers at other airlines (both legacy and otherwise), we don’t need to make stuff up to add sprinkles on top. Bottom line, this place isn’t as bad as we’re making it out to be and I fear we are only hurting ourselves by selling it like this. I’m not saying we should try to polish a turd, but rather just be honest - both the good and the bad - and give the applicants the full picture with which to make their decisions.
Apparently every clown with a microphone is doing enough to scare good pilots away from us without self sabotage on our part.
But this is the perception in the industry right now and it’s getting out to job seekers through the channels that young job seekers use to research employment.
Thats a problem for me and you because when the dust settles and the contract is signed we want the best and brightest, most experienced and highly qualified pilots that SWA can possibly recruit sitting next to us. We don’t want the left overs or those with skeletons in their closet that can’t go anywhere else.
I don’t pretend to know where Pro Pilot Playbook gets their information, but I think that while there is value in highlighting the areas where our CBA lags our peers at other airlines (both legacy and otherwise), we don’t need to make stuff up to add sprinkles on top. Bottom line, this place isn’t as bad as we’re making it out to be and I fear we are only hurting ourselves by selling it like this. I’m not saying we should try to polish a turd, but rather just be honest - both the good and the bad - and give the applicants the full picture with which to make their decisions.
Apparently every clown with a microphone is doing enough to scare good pilots away from us without self sabotage on our part.
09-05-2023, 10:42 AM
#1087
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 829
However, based on what former "players" who used to be senior FOs here are showing me at Delta, their work rules allow for much better flexibility and opportunities to make more money than us. I'm not sure if that's a short term thing, maybe when hiring gets more under control and/or a recession hits things like rolling thunder and green slips will go away. Also not sure if "anyone" can make huge totals or these stories I hear are just outliers. For example, it's possible to make 400+ TFP in a single month at SWA, but most people neither have the seniority or wiling to make the sacrifices necessary's to achieve that.
Bottom line - I wish I'd not taken it as a "known fact" that Southwest has the best flexibility and best opportunities to make extra money.
09-05-2023, 10:53 AM
#1088
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
Point is, there’s plenty about this place that needs improvement. But let’s not scare off good candidates with made up stories or trumped up exaggerations. Eventually… hopefully… we’re going to want good people to come to work here and to stay. I just don’t want to poison the well.
09-05-2023, 11:25 AM
#1089
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 829
Oh I agree with that. Our so called flexibility is antiquated and our premium is sub-industry standard even if you have the seniority to hold it. We do, however have the ability to work more - right up to FAR 117 limits. I don’t always like it. But it does give one the ability to make as much as our legacy counterparts, even on higher paying equipment provided we are willing to work like a rented mule to make it happen. All I was getting at is that those Podcast hosts were not being honest with potential applicants by saying you can’t make that kind of money here. You absolutely can. You might not like what you have to do to do it… but it’s possible. (Anecdotally this generation of new hires values time off more than money, but that’s the company’s problem to solve)
Point is, there’s plenty about this place that needs improvement. But let’s not scare off good candidates with made up stories or trumped up exaggerations. Eventually… hopefully… we’re going to want good people to come to work here and to stay. I just don’t want to poison the well.
Point is, there’s plenty about this place that needs improvement. But let’s not scare off good candidates with made up stories or trumped up exaggerations. Eventually… hopefully… we’re going to want good people to come to work here and to stay. I just don’t want to poison the well.
09-05-2023, 12:33 PM
#1090
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 28
There’s a podcast called Pro Pilot Playbook. In their August 29th episode, in a segment regarding hiring, they said that they don’t consider Southwest to be on par with a legacy airline career. They went on to say that nobody at Southwest can make the money that legacy airline counterparts earn. Now, forget for a moment the difference in work required, this is demonstrably false.
But this is the perception in the industry right now and it’s getting out to job seekers through the channels that young job seekers use to research employment.
Thats a problem for me and you because when the dust settles and the contract is signed we want the best and brightest, most experienced and highly qualified pilots that SWA can possibly recruit sitting next to us. We don’t want the left overs or those with skeletons in their closet that can’t go anywhere else.
I don’t pretend to know where Pro Pilot Playbook gets their information, but I think that while there is value in highlighting the areas where our CBA lags our peers at other airlines (both legacy and otherwise), we don’t need to make stuff up to add sprinkles on top. Bottom line, this place isn’t as bad as we’re making it out to be and I fear we are only hurting ourselves by selling it like this. I’m not saying we should try to polish a turd, but rather just be honest - both the good and the bad - and give the applicants the full picture with which to make their decisions.
Apparently every clown with a microphone is doing enough to scare good pilots away from us without self sabotage on our part.
But this is the perception in the industry right now and it’s getting out to job seekers through the channels that young job seekers use to research employment.
Thats a problem for me and you because when the dust settles and the contract is signed we want the best and brightest, most experienced and highly qualified pilots that SWA can possibly recruit sitting next to us. We don’t want the left overs or those with skeletons in their closet that can’t go anywhere else.
I don’t pretend to know where Pro Pilot Playbook gets their information, but I think that while there is value in highlighting the areas where our CBA lags our peers at other airlines (both legacy and otherwise), we don’t need to make stuff up to add sprinkles on top. Bottom line, this place isn’t as bad as we’re making it out to be and I fear we are only hurting ourselves by selling it like this. I’m not saying we should try to polish a turd, but rather just be honest - both the good and the bad - and give the applicants the full picture with which to make their decisions.
Apparently every clown with a microphone is doing enough to scare good pilots away from us without self sabotage on our part.
This all falls squarely on the company. Agreed things aren’t quite as bad as some make it out on here, but we keep falling further behind our peers. They could have closed out this contract earlier, but chose to keep dragging things out.
The frustration expressed on here in my opinion is on management and their lack of interest in compensating pilots properly to attract and retain talent.
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