1,221 Reasons Not to work for Southwest
08-30-2023, 06:54 AM
#1051
Spikes the Koolaid
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 737
Posts: 403
No, the comment happened. Many in the current generation of pilots applying to majors and legacies have less than zero clue about what it took their interviewers to get to this point. Them strutting their stuff around like they're the cats meow and that any airline should be lucky to get them is off-putting, immature, and shows complete lack of awareness. I don't want them here. Not all of them are like that, but a good number are, and many are under the impression that they're in because APC or board of their choice says we're "desperate" and we only need applicants who can "fog the mirror."
I talk to my interview team buds after their week of interviewing is done. Man, there are some serious doozies, but they're holding the line, and I appreciate what they do, especially in this environment. As a junior captain, I REALLY appreciate what they do because I end up flying with these people when they first get on line. And so far, I've been very happy with the quality of people I've flown with, so I'd say that the interview team is doing their job well.
I talk to my interview team buds after their week of interviewing is done. Man, there are some serious doozies, but they're holding the line, and I appreciate what they do, especially in this environment. As a junior captain, I REALLY appreciate what they do because I end up flying with these people when they first get on line. And so far, I've been very happy with the quality of people I've flown with, so I'd say that the interview team is doing their job well.
I'm glad that people right now have an easier time getting to (and staying at) a major airline than I did (or God forbid, Zap). Truly. Nobody should have to go through a lost decade. There definitely seems to be a sense of ent... expectation though, from the current batch of people getting in. I think that's partly warranted; because of the historically low minimums at the majors, it's possible for people to go straight from entry level industry positions (like CFI) to a major or even Big 3/4.
Of course, as in times past, the people getting hired at major airlines with the bare minimum paper recommendations generally have something on their resume that pushes them over the edge (internship, early jet time, connections, ESG stuff (which also happened in the past, so this is nothing new)), and are for the most part excellent candidates who try hard. The majority of people being hired are beyond the minimum requirement (regional, ULCC, military time, etc). Then, on the other end of the spectrum you still have the small but wildly over qualified crowd (which has gone from space shuttle pilots to check pilots, etc).
The whole spectrum has slid left, not politically, but towards the center axis of the experience graph. We will always have people who want to come to swa for whatever reason.
The concern I have, and that I think most people have, is that because the graph has slid so far to the minimum federal requirements, we're going to miss out on a lot of people who are doing their due diligence in career earnings comparisons and not taking a risk on a place that is still "hanging its very Texas spurs" on a corpse of a culture, or are simply getting hired at another major first and not seeing the benefit of leaving brand x to come to swa. I don't blame them at all, it's just business.
I don't blame people for using swa as a resume washer. I don't blame people for seeing swa as second or third tier (or worse). We are, and because the company has shown it's just business now, the only thing the company can do (barring a return to Herb's values) is change the contract side of things.
But like I said, this is less of an entitlement issue as an expectations generation. Many people on here talk about the fogging the mirror to get a job and that's simply not true... yet. That factor may change in a major way once we get a contract. If it's finally ACTUALLY industry leading (not NB), the factor will change for the better, because I feel like many people coming here are coming here in the anticipation that we're going to get something great. I hope they're right. That factor will immediately snap to the "fog the mirror" side of the spectrum if we don't get an INDUSTRY leading contract.
But people feel like the expectation is that we're desperate (we are) so we'll do anything to fill interview slots (we will), which therefore must mean that they'll hire anybody (we won't... yet). Yes some people slip through the cracks, but so far the bilge pump is keeping up.
What most rational people on here are saying is that the mass exodus is concerning both from a financial standpoint (debatable) and from a brain drain sense. I don't want all the resume washers to leave. I want them to want to stay. If we don't right the ship, people who want to stay (or come) here might not from a simple calculus perspective.
The "why should I come here" person is a great example. That's an appropriate sentiment to have, but the way that person asks that question tells you everything you need to know about the person. "Why should I come here when your pay is worse than everybody else's" is not a great way to ask that question and shows a lot about the condescending nature of that person. It also shows that they've done little to no research on the company and its competitors.
This isn't the old days: there's a wealth of information available to applicants. You ask a question like that in the interview, at least in that way, you're trying to be snarky.
08-30-2023, 08:23 AM
#1052
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 683
I generally don't like when people automatically call later generations entitled (after all, as a millennial I'm part of the originally titled "Entitlement Generation", though I guess now I'm a boomer), but I like the way you put it.
I'm glad that people right now have an easier time getting to (and staying at) a major airline than I did (or God forbid, Zap). Truly. Nobody should have to go through a lost decade. There definitely seems to be a sense of ent... expectation though, from the current batch of people getting in. I think that's partly warranted; because of the historically low minimums at the majors, it's possible for people to go straight from entry level industry positions (like CFI) to a major or even Big 3/4.
Of course, as in times past, the people getting hired at major airlines with the bare minimum paper recommendations generally have something on their resume that pushes them over the edge (internship, early jet time, connections, ESG stuff (which also happened in the past, so this is nothing new)), and are for the most part excellent candidates who try hard. The majority of people being hired are beyond the minimum requirement (regional, ULCC, military time, etc). Then, on the other end of the spectrum you still have the small but wildly over qualified crowd (which has gone from space shuttle pilots to check pilots, etc).
The whole spectrum has slid left, not politically, but towards the center axis of the experience graph. We will always have people who want to come to swa for whatever reason.
The concern I have, and that I think most people have, is that because the graph has slid so far to the minimum federal requirements, we're going to miss out on a lot of people who are doing their due diligence in career earnings comparisons and not taking a risk on a place that is still "hanging its very Texas spurs" on a corpse of a culture, or are simply getting hired at another major first and not seeing the benefit of leaving brand x to come to swa. I don't blame them at all, it's just business.
I don't blame people for using swa as a resume washer. I don't blame people for seeing swa as second or third tier (or worse). We are, and because the company has shown it's just business now, the only thing the company can do (barring a return to Herb's values) is change the contract side of things.
But like I said, this is less of an entitlement issue as an expectations generation. Many people on here talk about the fogging the mirror to get a job and that's simply not true... yet. That factor may change in a major way once we get a contract. If it's finally ACTUALLY industry leading (not NB), the factor will change for the better, because I feel like many people coming here are coming here in the anticipation that we're going to get something great. I hope they're right. That factor will immediately snap to the "fog the mirror" side of the spectrum if we don't get an INDUSTRY leading contract.
But people feel like the expectation is that we're desperate (we are) so we'll do anything to fill interview slots (we will), which therefore must mean that they'll hire anybody (we won't... yet). Yes some people slip through the cracks, but so far the bilge pump is keeping up.
What most rational people on here are saying is that the mass exodus is concerning both from a financial standpoint (debatable) and from a brain drain sense. I don't want all the resume washers to leave. I want them to want to stay. If we don't right the ship, people who want to stay (or come) here might not from a simple calculus perspective.
The "why should I come here" person is a great example. That's an appropriate sentiment to have, but the way that person asks that question tells you everything you need to know about the person. "Why should I come here when your pay is worse than everybody else's" is not a great way to ask that question and shows a lot about the condescending nature of that person. It also shows that they've done little to no research on the company and its competitors.
This isn't the old days: there's a wealth of information available to applicants. You ask a question like that in the interview, at least in that way, you're trying to be snarky.
I'm glad that people right now have an easier time getting to (and staying at) a major airline than I did (or God forbid, Zap). Truly. Nobody should have to go through a lost decade. There definitely seems to be a sense of ent... expectation though, from the current batch of people getting in. I think that's partly warranted; because of the historically low minimums at the majors, it's possible for people to go straight from entry level industry positions (like CFI) to a major or even Big 3/4.
Of course, as in times past, the people getting hired at major airlines with the bare minimum paper recommendations generally have something on their resume that pushes them over the edge (internship, early jet time, connections, ESG stuff (which also happened in the past, so this is nothing new)), and are for the most part excellent candidates who try hard. The majority of people being hired are beyond the minimum requirement (regional, ULCC, military time, etc). Then, on the other end of the spectrum you still have the small but wildly over qualified crowd (which has gone from space shuttle pilots to check pilots, etc).
The whole spectrum has slid left, not politically, but towards the center axis of the experience graph. We will always have people who want to come to swa for whatever reason.
The concern I have, and that I think most people have, is that because the graph has slid so far to the minimum federal requirements, we're going to miss out on a lot of people who are doing their due diligence in career earnings comparisons and not taking a risk on a place that is still "hanging its very Texas spurs" on a corpse of a culture, or are simply getting hired at another major first and not seeing the benefit of leaving brand x to come to swa. I don't blame them at all, it's just business.
I don't blame people for using swa as a resume washer. I don't blame people for seeing swa as second or third tier (or worse). We are, and because the company has shown it's just business now, the only thing the company can do (barring a return to Herb's values) is change the contract side of things.
But like I said, this is less of an entitlement issue as an expectations generation. Many people on here talk about the fogging the mirror to get a job and that's simply not true... yet. That factor may change in a major way once we get a contract. If it's finally ACTUALLY industry leading (not NB), the factor will change for the better, because I feel like many people coming here are coming here in the anticipation that we're going to get something great. I hope they're right. That factor will immediately snap to the "fog the mirror" side of the spectrum if we don't get an INDUSTRY leading contract.
But people feel like the expectation is that we're desperate (we are) so we'll do anything to fill interview slots (we will), which therefore must mean that they'll hire anybody (we won't... yet). Yes some people slip through the cracks, but so far the bilge pump is keeping up.
What most rational people on here are saying is that the mass exodus is concerning both from a financial standpoint (debatable) and from a brain drain sense. I don't want all the resume washers to leave. I want them to want to stay. If we don't right the ship, people who want to stay (or come) here might not from a simple calculus perspective.
The "why should I come here" person is a great example. That's an appropriate sentiment to have, but the way that person asks that question tells you everything you need to know about the person. "Why should I come here when your pay is worse than everybody else's" is not a great way to ask that question and shows a lot about the condescending nature of that person. It also shows that they've done little to no research on the company and its competitors.
This isn't the old days: there's a wealth of information available to applicants. You ask a question like that in the interview, at least in that way, you're trying to be snarky.
08-30-2023, 08:38 AM
#1053
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2023
Position: crj 900
Posts: 84
This entire thread's recent posts is full of booohmers talking about the good old days and how they had to walk 10 miles in the snow to get to school. Complaining about those milennials and how easy it is for them today.
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
08-30-2023, 10:02 AM
#1054
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,763
Waterskisabersw, I give you this example...
.... then click on his profile and just glance at his other posts. Would you hire someone who comes across like this?
This entire thread's recent posts is full of booohmers talking about the good old days and how they had to walk 10 miles in the snow to get to school. Complaining about those milennials and how easy it is for them today.
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
08-30-2023, 10:17 AM
#1055
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2023
Position: crj 900
Posts: 84
You and everyone here knows what I said is 100% true. The evidence is in these posts. I couldn't care less about being hired at WN. I'm at a much better place than that.
08-30-2023, 10:34 AM
#1056
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,763
Stalk your profile? Hardly. But since it was bearing on the conversation, it helps to ascertain if someone's maybe having a bad day.... Sadly, you're clearly anti "boomer" as evident in your other posts. That tells me you don't respect, or get along with older crowd, so I know I wouldn't want you here. We are an airline of 11,000 pilots ranging from being just over 23 to just under 65. Our captains range from mid-30's all the way to mandatory retirement age. We expect our people to get along with all of them. I can count the weirdos and people I wouldn't care to fly with on one hand in 7.5 short years here. Conversely, as a junior captain, I've flown with FO's who are way older than me and also way senior as they've been bypassing for years and years, and I've flown with brand new FO's who are under 30. Over 3 or 4 days, the personality comes out and you get to see who you're dealing with. And again, the weirdos and people I wouldn't want to fly with can only fit on one hand, and I'm yet to meet an FO I wouldn't fly with again. Yes, there are still plenty of good, friendly, humble and polite people around... I'm beyond stoked that our interviewers manage to find them and for the most part, keep the weirdos, self-absorbed, and unpleasant people away.
08-30-2023, 10:37 AM
#1057
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2023
Position: crj 900
Posts: 84
Stalk your profile? Hardly. But since it was bearing on the conversation, it helps to ascertain if someone's maybe having a bad day.... Sadly, you're clearly anti "boomer" as evident in your other posts. That tells me you don't respect, or get along with older crowd, so I know I wouldn't want you here. We are an airline of 11,000 pilots ranging from being just over 23 to just under 65. Our captains range from mid-30's all the way to mandatory retirement age. We expect our people to get along with all of them. I can count the weirdos and people I wouldn't care to fly with on one hand in 7.5 short years here. Conversely, as a junior captain, I've flown with FO's who are way older than me and also way senior as they've been bypassing for years and years, and I've flown with brand new FO's who are under 30. Over 3 or 4 days, the personality comes out and you get to see who you're dealing with. And again, the weirdos and people I wouldn't want to fly with can only fit on one hand, and I'm yet to meet an FO I wouldn't fly with again. Yes, there are still plenty of good, friendly, humble and polite people around... I'm beyond stoked that our interviewers manage to find them and for the most part, keep the weirdos, self-absorbed, and unpleasant people away.
08-30-2023, 11:05 AM
#1058
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,781
This entire thread's recent posts is full of booohmers talking about the good old days and how they had to walk 10 miles in the snow to get to school. Complaining about those milennials and how easy it is for them today.
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
They are jealous and envious of the opportunity thereis today for milennials that was not available during thier time.
Instead of being supportive and proud everyone has a chance, no. These old booohmers are filled with pent up rage and envy. Yet they talk about how southwest is selective in thier interviews for personality. How did these guys get hired?
08-30-2023, 12:15 PM
#1059
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,033
Many of us are not boomers. I’m Gen X. Within two years of “making it” to a regional 9/11 happened. The “good old days” ended when the Pan Am Clipper ships were retired. It’s the best hiring period in pretty much all of commercial aviation history, and consequently, some of the least hiring standards in the last 30 years. This is a fact, not an opinion.
If you're one day older than an entitled person, and you're even tangentially in the way of anything their heart desires, you're a "boomer".
08-30-2023, 12:19 PM
#1060
Strike averted!
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: B737
Posts: 3,781
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