Proximity

I lump you right in with SWAPA 1.0, you are doing exactly what they are doing with the 108 TFP, maybe even worse. At least 108 TFP argument (while wrong) was based on an average across the whole pilot group. Your credibility is shot with me when you use the most extremely optimal numbers for the Delta side of your comparison and below average numbers for the Southwest side. The average Delta pilot isn't upgrading in 6 months. Moreover, the handful pilots that do upgrade at 6 months (maybe just 1?) aren't crediting 83 hours average with a reserve line (or a line with 5 day rotations consisting of 4 legs per day Florida shuttle).

I don't think you comprehended my post. I made the LEAST of any senior FO I know. I used all my contract knowledge and seniority to work as little as I could.

I still ended up with more TFP than the number you are using. Please educate me on how to lower my TFP further to reach your number because I see it as impossible. I would like to work less. Please don't make yourself look silly with a snapshot of one month's average TFP value.

I'm saying that you can't make 1140 TFP at Southwest. A combination of being unable to shed flying, reroutes, JAs, and soft time make it pretty much impossible to credit that low.

Not sure how that's bragging.

symbian simian

So you use your superior contract knowledge and still end up flying close to 120% guarantee? NK is hiring. Drop your whole line every month.

Lewbronski

I took the upgrade time for Delta right off of the comparison SWAPA (2.0) published within the last couple of weeks. Take it up with them if you disagree with that.

What upgrade progression should SWAPA (and I) use to model our comparisons with the OAL's, and why?

And, I explained why I used the yearly credit hour figures I did. It's exactly the same model UA ALPA used in their 2017 contract comparison (modified for rounding to the nearest monthly integer) when computing career company retirement contributions: 1,000 credit hours per year. Tell me how and why UA ALPA (and I) should model it instead to deliver an apples to apples comparison.

Anecdotally, in my n=1 case, I've made less than 1,140 TFP in a year quite a few times. That happened because I didn't have any interest in flying more than my line. I didn't pick up and I rarely got rerouted in a way that benefited me. For the last year or so, I've tried pretty actively to make more than that per month and have been pretty successful. But I have to work extra days. One month in the last year when I didn't pick up any extra days (though I tried to pick up premium, but the trips were all sniped at straight), I only made 92 TFP in the month (and it wasn't the short month - Feb).

Anecdotally, in your n=1 case and among the group of senior FO's you know, no one has self-reportedly made less than 1,140 TFP. Okay.

Which set of anecdotes is more valid? I don't know.

But again, it's also about making an apples to apples comparison, which I explained in my first reply to you. How do you propose that a valid apples to apples comparison is made since you clearly believe that 1,140 TFP is too low for SWA and 83 hours is too high for the OAL's even though they both work out to be (very close to) 1,000 yearly credit hrs and even though it's what UA ALPA's team came up with as the income basis upon which to make an apples to apples career retirement contributions comparison? AFAIK, SWAPA hasn't published any kind of similar numbers with which they make any kind of apples to apples career compensation comparison. So, I'm using what's available that's better-sourced than either you or I sticking our fingers into the breeze to pull a "feels about right" number from the anecdotal wind.

And, it's also about ensuring our financial well-being in the face of possible future contingencies, like the overmanning or the next global pandemic scenarios I raised earlier in reply to your protests. So, for argument's sake, let's say it's truly impossible, as you assert, to make less than 1,140 TFP per year at SWA today, right now. That doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. Do you want to take more of a financial hit X years from now than you have to if something happens that impairs our ability to make 1,140 TFP per year or more by insisting that our comparisons be made upon flying more instead of less?

Who knows what black swan or other combination of events might come together to preclude our ability to earn more than average line value or even guarantee every month? Do you want our rates fixed upon a presumed 1,600 or 2,000 or 2,400 TFP per year and then have the rug pulled out from underneath us later if all anyone can fly is guarantee? What numbers should we be using? And why?

So, my credibility is shot with you because I'm using the upgrade progression SWAPA published below and the career compensation model that UA ALPA published in their 2017 contract comparison and because, apparently, I'm not using the anecdotal information of myself or of you and your friends? Okay.


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Cyio

Lew you are doing gods work keep it up. Proximity is either a troll, managment or a koolaid drinker.

hoover

I think its fair and prudent to use only guarantee numbers. Anyone remember 2020-2021 when all we got was guarantee? When we all said our pay needs to be based off of guarantee not what we could do in the yrs past.
now since we are undermanned the TFP flows like wine and everyone is back to saying you can make 120 on reserve.
how quickly we forget.

SlipKid

Exactly.

You'd think that after the "lost decade", the Max grounding and covid, we'd have learned our lesson.

MudhammedCJ

Well, to be fair, it's only *some* of is that can't figure it out. These are the same people who argue AGAINST all the relatively small ancillary contract items because we're apparently special here and don't need those things (uniforms, parking, etc..)
​​​​​​If you wonder why your buddy with a great attitude and time in type and 10000 hours didn't get hired when they're begging for warm bodies, it's because they didn't exhibit the proper amount of Stockholm Syndrome. I'm so sick of hearing thier idiotic reasoning.

Proximity

Depends. It's highly individualized. If you live smack dab between the three NYC terminals and you don't mind being on reserve for the foreseeable future, I would use 1-2 years for someone hired today. And if you are holding a CJO from Delta and SWA and you live in NYC...I'd tell you every time to go to Delta.

However, you want to hold a line in MSP...no quick upgrade.

It is irresponsible to tell advise applying to Delta today that upgrade is six months based on one bid, just like I would never tell a new hire here that BWI is a lock for their first month just because the snapshot of last months bid had 90 new hires. There are reasons why the last bid was likely an anomaly and upgrade at Delta will likely go up if you care to look in the Delta forums or ask a Delta pilot.

My point is not to use anecdotes. If you use 6 month upgrade at Delta, which is an outlier to the high side, you have to use high side outlier TFP amounts at Southwest. You aren't making an apples to apples comparison.

Same with using Delta TA rates and comparing them to our current rates. Unless you are arguing that our current rates will continue for the next seven years and we will not get retro? I'm sure you'll pick at the details of what that rate might be but there no way we are not getting a contract in the ballpark of Delta's current rates with retro.

You are putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying to base our rates in 108 TFP, I made that clear in my first reply to you but again you don't care to listen because you have already made assumptions about my view and those of the pilot group in general. You missed my point entirely on the 1140 TFP thing and you aren't ever going to get it.

To make my position clear, our rates should be Delta 7ER plus 1% at an absolute minimum, plus full retro including NEC contributions.

Long Haul

You are the man (I assume that you’re a man) with the numbers, thanks! I’m going to print this out and tell my wife that I did it 😀. I live in the suburbs of Chicago, and although I realize that the other carriers have way shorter upgrade times, I’m not going to make any assumptions about that. The last time that I applied to United, you could get B744 FO in SFO as a new hire, and 727 captain had gone down to four years seniority, which was unheard of at the time. When they offered me an interview, I decided against going for various reasons, which turned out to be the best career decision that I ever made, considering that the twin towers were attacked seven months later….😅

hoover

Got a buddy at delta who is new and was bidding 97% right seat on the 737 in NYC. Lives in NYC and upgraded to the left seat of the 737 in about a yr. For him it was reserve in the right seat or reserve in the left seat for 100k more.
all I'm saying is it's nice to have options. Even the pilots who live in OAK or LAX can't upgrade in fewer than 7 yrs. There is no quick upgrade option at SW no matter the base.
that has to be reflected in the pay