Delta AIP
12-04-2022, 04:17 PM
#41
Logbook...
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 416
Hey Roper,
I’m gonna steer the koolies that I run across to this very discussion on this very forum to let them see the lengths that their overlords will go to…end goal being to deprive them and their families what they’re worth.
You. Have. Failed.
We’re coming for you and your buybacks and your options and your parachute. FUPM.
I’m gonna steer the koolies that I run across to this very discussion on this very forum to let them see the lengths that their overlords will go to…end goal being to deprive them and their families what they’re worth.
You. Have. Failed.
We’re coming for you and your buybacks and your options and your parachute. FUPM.
12-04-2022, 04:34 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 48
I’m sorry to disappoint you guys, but I’m not part of your contract war. I’ll admit I have more experience as an employer vs an employee, and zero union experience, hence the questions.
Best of luck with your negotiations. I think I’ll leave the 121 world to the experts. Take care -
Best of luck with your negotiations. I think I’ll leave the 121 world to the experts. Take care -
12-04-2022, 06:11 PM
#44
Logbook...
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 416
Did someone fart? I smell something nasty.
Last edited by Tankerhead; 12-04-2022 at 06:54 PM.
was a shill.
12-05-2022, 12:08 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Help with some math and industry POV.
Some of the proposals here (55-60%) would require a non-negligible increase in fares, headed into an economic downturn.
Does anyone know the average pilot wage spread across the group? It would simplify the math.
EBITDA has run around $4B with net running $2B pre-Covid. A $50k increase across 10,000 pilots is $500MM, or 25% of net (approx 2.5% top-line). I get the sense that a $50k increase on avg is not popular here.
The avg fare for 2019 looks like $128 - ish.
If the goal of the pilot group is $75k avg bump or 100k…has anyone run the math on how that affects sales? How many fewer flight will be flown, and how much will the profit sharing be reduced?
Also, is there any discussion to unite the overall employee groups or encouragement to maximize top-line? I read stuff on here that seems counter-productive to the business. Surely everyone understands more total profits and a better customer experience provided by a united hard-working team gives everyone more bargaining power.
I’m concerned (wondering) about hitching my wagon to a group that isn’t focused on being better than the competition to ensure long-term security and revenue. The pie will shrink in a down-turn but it seems like pilots could set a great tone to grow a bigger share of that pie with the slightest bit of focus on where the bread gets buttered.
What am I missing? Some attitudes here are a death march toward automation, and a divided workforce which is easily beaten in negotiations. Check out the rail deal. No savior for unions regardless of party.
I have ZERO 121 experience. Outsider. Wannabe. Clueless.
Educate me.
Tell me why if I was running the union I wouldn’t want every pilot setting the tone, BELOVED by customers, their kids, and ALL of the other staff groups making it happen? Why wouldn’t I want other pilots from other companies jealous as hell of the SWA experience? Why wouldn’t I want the folks on the ramp feeling appreciated as part of one team, with a culture lead by pilots (who might go toss a bag once in awhile)?
Why wouldn’t I want the PILOTS to be the face of the airline, always supporting the brand? When it comes time for negotiations, NOW you hold the cards at the table because you are more than just an expense, you are the top line.
Maybe I’m crazy but the pilots/team are the ones who see the customers every day, not the CSuite. Why not own that, and control the brand?
As a former employer, its so strange to read about members of the team essentially sabotaging profits. The contract and striking becomes the only leverage…thats so backwards in a customer facing environment where the front line has the ability to OWN the brand. Be undeniable, get paid.
Blast away. I want to understand this beast.
Some of the proposals here (55-60%) would require a non-negligible increase in fares, headed into an economic downturn.
Does anyone know the average pilot wage spread across the group? It would simplify the math.
EBITDA has run around $4B with net running $2B pre-Covid. A $50k increase across 10,000 pilots is $500MM, or 25% of net (approx 2.5% top-line). I get the sense that a $50k increase on avg is not popular here.
The avg fare for 2019 looks like $128 - ish.
If the goal of the pilot group is $75k avg bump or 100k…has anyone run the math on how that affects sales? How many fewer flight will be flown, and how much will the profit sharing be reduced?
Also, is there any discussion to unite the overall employee groups or encouragement to maximize top-line? I read stuff on here that seems counter-productive to the business. Surely everyone understands more total profits and a better customer experience provided by a united hard-working team gives everyone more bargaining power.
I’m concerned (wondering) about hitching my wagon to a group that isn’t focused on being better than the competition to ensure long-term security and revenue. The pie will shrink in a down-turn but it seems like pilots could set a great tone to grow a bigger share of that pie with the slightest bit of focus on where the bread gets buttered.
What am I missing? Some attitudes here are a death march toward automation, and a divided workforce which is easily beaten in negotiations. Check out the rail deal. No savior for unions regardless of party.
I have ZERO 121 experience. Outsider. Wannabe. Clueless.
Educate me.
Tell me why if I was running the union I wouldn’t want every pilot setting the tone, BELOVED by customers, their kids, and ALL of the other staff groups making it happen? Why wouldn’t I want other pilots from other companies jealous as hell of the SWA experience? Why wouldn’t I want the folks on the ramp feeling appreciated as part of one team, with a culture lead by pilots (who might go toss a bag once in awhile)?
Why wouldn’t I want the PILOTS to be the face of the airline, always supporting the brand? When it comes time for negotiations, NOW you hold the cards at the table because you are more than just an expense, you are the top line.
Maybe I’m crazy but the pilots/team are the ones who see the customers every day, not the CSuite. Why not own that, and control the brand?
As a former employer, its so strange to read about members of the team essentially sabotaging profits. The contract and striking becomes the only leverage…thats so backwards in a customer facing environment where the front line has the ability to OWN the brand. Be undeniable, get paid.
Blast away. I want to understand this beast.
Like, if scientists created a talking hologram called "Man With Punchable Face" that spoke corporatese, this is exactly the kind of douchey sh** it would say.
Or if Lumbergh from Office Space was looking for a sidekick to help him crush souls at mandatory fun culture committee jam sessions during recurrent, this would be the guy of Lumbergh's dreams.
12-05-2022, 04:19 AM
#49
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 48
I have also learned how easily these contract negotiations must be for management where the pilot group refuses to educate themselves. Seriously, has nobody done the math? The numbers are all public. You guys should know EXACTLY what the company can afford without risking furlough, how that will affect sales and competition, and how that will will reduce monthly TFP and profit sharing. Every bit of that hits your bank account.
I have read the other forums on the Delta AIP. Everyone just sticks there finger in the wind and says….no, still not enough….or - well, our reps suck compared to their reps…or - I’m a no vote…but it’ll pass with all the $&@ yessies.
Its comical. There is zero analysis, and all the data is RIGHT HERE. Why make it so easy to negotiate against yourselves? I mean, the first guy that comes along and asks a few questions and you guys are wanting to throw me in the moat to see if I float. Good lord. I would have loved to negotiate against this group
I’ll look up the SS4M.
As for FUPM and 5/20, they “may” hurt your cause. On one hand you want to be seen as respected professionals and paid top dollar for your experience (which I agree with!). On the other hand you are making it personal with the guys on the other side of the table, and giving them ammunition to argue privately that you don’t have SWA’s best interest in mind but you are just in it for you. I actually don’t believe thats the case btw, but its been a rough couple of years and everyone is down. I think most pilots here want their company to do great. I think most pilots who chose SWA valued the culture, and so there is a personal level of pain on top of the financial. Its just that 5/20 and FUPM are rallying cries that can easily be used against you, especially to divide you among the other work groups which are paid a fraction of what you are —- while they get to eat $&1t sandwiches everyday working with upset customers who have also had a hard few years on the airlines. I know, I was there.
Which brings me to my last point (as I hear faint echoes in the mist “bring our yer dead” moving my way)…
1221. Look, I TOTALLY understand management screwed the pooch there especially with $$ reserves on hand. They didn’t need to do that. I read last year where the C-Suite delayed some comp (later snapped back) and then tried to get the unions to play ball with a paycut….then they “WARNed 1221 pilots”. Not cool. BUT -
You have let them win again. 1221 should be 6,828 (the number of WARNs sent company wide). They tee’d up a GOLDEN opportunity for solidarity with your fellow workgroups. They literally handed you a rallying cry that would’ve strengthened your leverage company wide and instead of 6,828!, 1,221 was chosen which they can now further use as evidence to divide you as the over-paid work group who doesn’t play well with others.
Now you guys can get smart, do the math, unite with the ENTIRE workforce, and get the BEST contract…or you can continue to stick your fingers in the wind, and ***** about what you get, blame one another and management, while the other side posts your APC threads in their urinals for comic relief…. I’ll be shillin’ with the homies.
(He’s a witch! Burn him!!!!!)
12-05-2022, 04:25 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 612
I have been trying to learn here. So far, I have learned that financial analysis and proper grammar are threatening.
I have also learned how easily these contract negotiations must be for management where the pilot group refuses to educate themselves. Seriously, has nobody done the math? The numbers are all public. You guys should know EXACTLY what the company can afford without risking furlough, how that will affect sales and competition, and how that will will reduce monthly TFP and profit sharing. Every bit of that hits your bank account.
I have read the other forums on the Delta AIP. Everyone just sticks there finger in the wind and says….no, still not enough….or - well, our reps suck compared to their reps…or - I’m a no vote…but it’ll pass with all the $&@ yessies.
Its comical. There is zero analysis, and all the data is RIGHT HERE. Why make it so easy to negotiate against yourselves? I mean, the first guy that comes along and asks a few questions and you guys are wanting to throw me in the moat to see if I float. Good lord. I would have loved to negotiate against this group
I’ll look up the SS4M.
As for FUPM and 5/20, they “may” hurt your cause. On one hand you want to be seen as respected professionals and paid top dollar for your experience (which I agree with!). On the other hand you are making it personal with the guys on the other side of the table, and giving them ammunition to argue privately that you don’t have SWA’s best interest in mind but you are just in it for you. I actually don’t believe thats the case btw, but its been a rough couple of years and everyone is down. I think most pilots here want their company to do great. I think most pilots who chose SWA valued the culture, and so there is a personal level of pain on top of the financial. Its just that 5/20 and FUPM are rallying cries that can easily be used against you, especially to divide you among the other work groups which are paid a fraction of what you are —- while they get to eat $&1t sandwiches everyday working with upset customers who have also had a hard few years on the airlines. I know, I was there.
Which brings me to my last point (as I hear faint echoes in the mist “bring our yer dead” moving my way)…
1221. Look, I TOTALLY understand management screwed the pooch there especially with $$ reserves on hand. They didn’t need to do that. I read last year where the C-Suite delayed some comp (later snapped back) and then tried to get the unions to play ball with a paycut….then they “WARNed 1221 pilots”. Not cool. BUT -
You have let them win again. 1221 should be 6,828 (the number of WARNs sent company wide). They tee’d up a GOLDEN opportunity for solidarity with your fellow workgroups. They literally handed you a rallying cry that would’ve strengthened your leverage company wide and instead of 6,828!, 1,221 was chosen which they can now further use as evidence to divide you as the over-paid work group who doesn’t play well with others.
Now you guys can get smart, do the math, unite with the ENTIRE workforce, and get the BEST contract…or you can continue to stick your fingers in the wind, and ***** about what you get, blame one another and management, while the other side posts your APC threads in their urinals for comic relief…. I’ll be shillin’ with the homies.
(He’s a witch! Burn him!!!!!)
I have also learned how easily these contract negotiations must be for management where the pilot group refuses to educate themselves. Seriously, has nobody done the math? The numbers are all public. You guys should know EXACTLY what the company can afford without risking furlough, how that will affect sales and competition, and how that will will reduce monthly TFP and profit sharing. Every bit of that hits your bank account.
I have read the other forums on the Delta AIP. Everyone just sticks there finger in the wind and says….no, still not enough….or - well, our reps suck compared to their reps…or - I’m a no vote…but it’ll pass with all the $&@ yessies.
Its comical. There is zero analysis, and all the data is RIGHT HERE. Why make it so easy to negotiate against yourselves? I mean, the first guy that comes along and asks a few questions and you guys are wanting to throw me in the moat to see if I float. Good lord. I would have loved to negotiate against this group
I’ll look up the SS4M.
As for FUPM and 5/20, they “may” hurt your cause. On one hand you want to be seen as respected professionals and paid top dollar for your experience (which I agree with!). On the other hand you are making it personal with the guys on the other side of the table, and giving them ammunition to argue privately that you don’t have SWA’s best interest in mind but you are just in it for you. I actually don’t believe thats the case btw, but its been a rough couple of years and everyone is down. I think most pilots here want their company to do great. I think most pilots who chose SWA valued the culture, and so there is a personal level of pain on top of the financial. Its just that 5/20 and FUPM are rallying cries that can easily be used against you, especially to divide you among the other work groups which are paid a fraction of what you are —- while they get to eat $&1t sandwiches everyday working with upset customers who have also had a hard few years on the airlines. I know, I was there.
Which brings me to my last point (as I hear faint echoes in the mist “bring our yer dead” moving my way)…
1221. Look, I TOTALLY understand management screwed the pooch there especially with $$ reserves on hand. They didn’t need to do that. I read last year where the C-Suite delayed some comp (later snapped back) and then tried to get the unions to play ball with a paycut….then they “WARNed 1221 pilots”. Not cool. BUT -
You have let them win again. 1221 should be 6,828 (the number of WARNs sent company wide). They tee’d up a GOLDEN opportunity for solidarity with your fellow workgroups. They literally handed you a rallying cry that would’ve strengthened your leverage company wide and instead of 6,828!, 1,221 was chosen which they can now further use as evidence to divide you as the over-paid work group who doesn’t play well with others.
Now you guys can get smart, do the math, unite with the ENTIRE workforce, and get the BEST contract…or you can continue to stick your fingers in the wind, and ***** about what you get, blame one another and management, while the other side posts your APC threads in their urinals for comic relief…. I’ll be shillin’ with the homies.
(He’s a witch! Burn him!!!!!)
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