Contract Expectations
12-13-2022, 08:47 AM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Just curious…what is your justification for the same pay for a 350/777 carrying 300+ people around the World vs a 737 carrying 180 people around the US? Traditionally, more expensive aircraft, generating more revenue, carrying more people, operating in more challenging environments (language, rules, etc), tend to pay more. I’m genuinely interested and not trying to start anything…full disclosure I don’t work for SWA and would love to see you all get $400/hour. I’m just trying to figure how that is in the ZOR with Delta’s latest AIP
Is SWA willing to pay X for its pilots? Is SWA willing to pay Y for its fuel? If the price of fuel increases by 55% does SWA stop paying for it? At what percentage price increase does SWA stop paying for fuel or stop buying as much fuel?
What happens to SWA’s operation if it becomes unwilling to pay the market price for fuel? What happens to SWA’s operation if it becomes unwilling to pay the market price for pilots?
SWA pilots could resolve to not agree to 12-year captain pay rates less than, for example, $600 per TFP. How would SWA respond to that?
Would they decide to try to simply drag mediation out for years at SWA’s currently uncompetitive (and becoming more so) compensation structure? What happens to pilot morale and pilot hiring and retention as that progresses? When does that begin to have a material impact on SWA’s operation?
What would happen to SWA’s operation after an impasse is finally declared in our dispute if management continued to refuse to agree to our contractual demands? Would passengers begin booking away from SWA during the cooling off period? If SWA refused to accede to our demands prior to the expiration of the status quo period, how confident are SWA’s managers that SWA would be be able to survive a legal strike?
Would SWA have begun trying to train scabs in anticipation of an impasse being declared? Would SWA be able to find enough scabs when airline pilot jobs are readily available and when other airlines pay substantially more than SWA and the scabs would then forever after have to deal with the scab moniker hung around their necks?
All of the above are factors in determining whether or not the SWA pilot hiring market will support “greedy” pay rates and a “greedy” overall total contractual value.
But, let’s be honest, the single most critical factor and the likely point of failure is whether or not pilots would have the resolve to stick to their guns and not capitulate out of fear, uncertainty, and doubt to a contractual value less than what the market will support before the process plays out.
12-13-2022, 08:54 AM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 766
Im just pointing out what risks we, as WN pilots take many times a day/week. We fly more legs than most. Thats not secret. Taking off and landing is inherently more risk inclusive than cruise. Therefore, more legs is more risk.
**** regionals do more legs than WN into crappier airports, no doubt. When I did 135 I took more risks going into nasty airports at 3 am with zero snow removal etc, hoping the book numbers would work.
I still think we should be paid alot.
12-13-2022, 08:56 AM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 264
But, let’s be honest, the single most critical factor and the likely point of failure is whether or not pilots would have the resolve to stick to their guns and not capitulate out of fear, uncertainty, and doubt to a contractual value less than what the market will support before the process plays out.
12-13-2022, 09:17 AM
#125
7.27%
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Boeing
Posts: 543
The idea is that we don’t have any other option to advance to higher paying jets due to how this company is built which in turn saves the company a metric ton of cash having a single fleet. If we can’t advance and the company profits off that we should as well.
I honestly don’t think there is a significant skill gap that someone flying a 737 vs a 777 that couldn’t be overcome with some training and line experience. It’s not like we are somehow not mentally capable of learning the additional skills.
I honestly don’t think there is a significant skill gap that someone flying a 737 vs a 777 that couldn’t be overcome with some training and line experience. It’s not like we are somehow not mentally capable of learning the additional skills.
12-13-2022, 10:24 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
This. Let’s not forget that prior to about 1995 the legacies flew:
DC9-30 with 100 seats
Fokker 28 with 65 seats
Fokker 100 with 90 seats
737-200 with 100 seats
There was a time when there were no regionals, but rather a collection of commuters flying 19-37 seat turboprops that fed the hub. The idea was incremental revenue. A few people from Altoona, and a few from Beckley, and a few from Jamestown… bring them all to Pittsburgh and fill up a 737 to Orlando. It wasn’t until the ALPA foolishly allowed RJs to fall outside of scope that suddenly you have highly capable jets that could bypass hubs, or raid competitor hubs operating in big markets at high frequency. It was BS then and it’s BS now. Bring the flying back to the mainline and NEVER make that mistake again. Scope is sacrosanct.
DC9-30 with 100 seats
Fokker 28 with 65 seats
Fokker 100 with 90 seats
737-200 with 100 seats
There was a time when there were no regionals, but rather a collection of commuters flying 19-37 seat turboprops that fed the hub. The idea was incremental revenue. A few people from Altoona, and a few from Beckley, and a few from Jamestown… bring them all to Pittsburgh and fill up a 737 to Orlando. It wasn’t until the ALPA foolishly allowed RJs to fall outside of scope that suddenly you have highly capable jets that could bypass hubs, or raid competitor hubs operating in big markets at high frequency. It was BS then and it’s BS now. Bring the flying back to the mainline and NEVER make that mistake again. Scope is sacrosanct.
Instead, the mainline APA folks sold them out with a crummy contract, after a 90%+ (can't recall the exact number) strike vote. The Eagle folks went to ALPA not long after that, and I don't blame them.
The rest of the dominoes fell after that, and here we are.
12-13-2022, 04:14 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 204
Pay is proportionate to revenue generated. While you may not consider SWA flying risky, it really doesn’t matter. SWA pilots generate as much revenue for the company, by flying more block hours per day, carrying as many, if not more, cumulative passengers per day, than a wide pilot pilot flying one leg across the ocean. Pay should be commensurate with revenue generated for the work performed, not necessarily the risk involved.
12-13-2022, 04:20 PM
#130
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,124
Pay is proportionate to revenue generated. While you may not consider SWA flying risky, SWA pilots generate as much revenue for the company, by flying more block hours per day, than a wide pilot pilot flying one leg across the ocean. Pay should be commensurate with revenue generated for the work performed, not necessarily the risk involved.
Other than regionals, we're not exactly market based due to the seniority system. Fundamentally revenue is the primary factor which determines how much we *could* get paid, since airlines obviously can't operate at a loss for long. It's up to us to leverage the union system to our max benefit.
But you may be seriously underestimating how much revenue a widebody can generate... lots of premium seats on those. My swag would be that a legacy widebody pilot generates at least as much revenue on one international flight as a guppy pilot does in a multi-leg day. A widebody pilot working for FDX/UPS most certainly does, whole different league there.
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