10-27% attrition in new hire classes
03-19-2022, 06:09 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 280
Holy crap you guys are some miserable whiners. I’m finally starting to side with the if you don’t like it here then leave crowd and I used to hate those guys. We have a lot of things to fix in this upcoming contract and I’ve been a consistent no voter my entire career here. But the no widebody flying argument is getting tiresome to me. Southwest doesn’t do that kind of flying because they’re not that kind of Airline. Period. If you want to do that kind of flying, then get your apps out there. Everyone is hiring after all. If you’re not going to do that, then quit *****ing on here about how bad this glorified regional sucks and let’s work with SWAPA to get an industry leading contract. That’s what I’m focused on because I can’t control the type of equipment that the company chooses to operate, and as cliche as it is and I hated the guys that used to say this, you knew what Southwest was when you chose to come here.
03-19-2022, 06:28 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 341
Spirit has a pretty good CBA. Wouldn’t discount it. Or even JetBlue with their 16% B fund, paid uniforms and parking,
The problem with the lengthy upgrade is that, even if pay rates are lower at Brand X, if a pilot upgrades 5+ years earlier the delta in career earnings becomes so great there’s virtually no way to catch up. Sure there are outlier FOs at SW that hustle and make as much as a Captain, but if you’re average Joe pilot and just want to fly your line and actually spend your days off at home with your family, than career earnings will almost certainly be lower here than they would at any carrier with a quicker upgrade.
At the end of the day though what those other carriers offer is choice, The choice to upgrade quickly or not. The choice to go to a wide body.The only real choice we have doesn’t come until you’ve been here a decade, and then it’s whether you want to commute to weekend reserve, or stay an FO and watch that career earnings delta grow ever larger.
The problem with the lengthy upgrade is that, even if pay rates are lower at Brand X, if a pilot upgrades 5+ years earlier the delta in career earnings becomes so great there’s virtually no way to catch up. Sure there are outlier FOs at SW that hustle and make as much as a Captain, but if you’re average Joe pilot and just want to fly your line and actually spend your days off at home with your family, than career earnings will almost certainly be lower here than they would at any carrier with a quicker upgrade.
At the end of the day though what those other carriers offer is choice, The choice to upgrade quickly or not. The choice to go to a wide body.The only real choice we have doesn’t come until you’ve been here a decade, and then it’s whether you want to commute to weekend reserve, or stay an FO and watch that career earnings delta grow ever larger.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^
03-19-2022, 06:43 AM
#33
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
Realistically, there's no contractual improvement that would make someone choose a decade long upgrade (to OAK no less) when other options are available.
Those who are able to leave within their first few years will most likely leave unless they bleed Canyon Blue for some reason... or live in Oakland.
Those who are able to leave within their first few years will most likely leave unless they bleed Canyon Blue for some reason... or live in Oakland.
Eeyore, did we settle on if you'll be commuting to OAK for the plug captain spot?
Another question, the upgrade time is literally off-probation and 500 hours of UAL time, ever stop and wonder why? It's not like those guys and gals are instantly at 60% seniority list and going to the left seat. I recently sat up front in a UAL 737 all ****ed off about getting rerouted and had a nice long chat with the crew about it. The FO was a 2018 hire. He can hold captain in SFO, LAX and EWR. When I asked him why is he still an FO? "Because our reserve sucks so bad and I don't live on the coast. You do NOT want to commute to reserve here. There is a reason why thousands of guys want nothing to do with it."
We all look at the legacies as some kind of gold standard. How much reading do we do of other forums and read about their gripes? Any of their gripes sound vaguely familiar?
MEC Brief: Operating At Red Line, Again
Pilot morale
New Hires to be offered Widebody FO
There are some interesting perspectives in these threads.
Also, dunno if it's true, but supposedly there are like 2 Delta (or United?) guys in the latest new-hire class. Wonder why would they leave a 2-year upgrade plan and come to this turd?
Pollyanna says... the grass will always appear greener elsewhere because it's fertilized with a different brand of bullsh*t.
03-19-2022, 07:32 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,920
Holy crap you guys are some miserable whiners. I’m finally starting to side with the if you don’t like it here then leave crowd and I used to hate those guys. We have a lot of things to fix in this upcoming contract and I’ve been a consistent no voter my entire career here. But the no widebody flying argument is getting tiresome to me. Southwest doesn’t do that kind of flying because they’re not that kind of Airline. Period. If you want to do that kind of flying, then get your apps out there. Everyone is hiring after all. If you’re not going to do that, then quit *****ing on here about how bad this glorified regional sucks and let’s work with SWAPA to get an industry leading contract. That’s what I’m focused on because I can’t control the type of equipment that the company chooses to operate, and as cliche as it is and I hated the guys that used to say this, you knew what Southwest was when you chose to come here.
No, I haven’t flown a WB before. I’m sure the movie and ice cream time are lovely. I’ve got FedEx friends happy they’re not being held in their rooms under gunpoint or threat of arrest now in some cities….worst I’ve had to deal with is a homeless dude with Tourette’s at the SMF Arden West. I like being somewhat close to home with little kids. I think flying a 757, 777 or 350 would be fun….for about a month. Then it’s just another airplane going to the same 6 cities over and over and over. Also…I despise 4 days…no way am I doing 4-14 day trips. I could care less if that’s all you do for the month.
Yes, other airlines have a choice. So do you….best hiring market in arguably our lifetime with upgrade times basically NIL. Seriously….if you don’t like it here….go somewhere where you can be a WB FO right out of training…or sit in the left seat if the 4th stripe gives you some kind of validation about your life’s choices. There’s a reason the people whining about how much SWA sucks haven’t left….same reason nobody wants to be a RSV CA in SFO for UAL. You’re comfortable where you are, and it’s easier to complain about something you don’t care enough about to make happen. It’s there if you want it….nobody is stopping you.
This airline is what it is. A single fleet low cost airline. Has been since day 1 (with the 727 exception). Many new hires here didn’t have multiple offers at the time…some are getting offers after they start and attrition reflects that. I could certainly deal without the Flight Ops BS, spotty Wi-Fi and other tech issues. SWAPA has its work cut out with this new CBA also. For those wanting a stable airline with good pay and with bases across the country….it’s certainly better here than most places.
Also, pay me $250k a year and I can deal with 3 legs a day, a longer upgrade, and hitting the grocery store for food before a trip so I don’t have to wait in line for a $30 burger at the airport (food bag is a personal choice…I’m all for a per diem increase since hotel/overnight restaurants cost a lot now as well)
03-19-2022, 07:43 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 115
The generation that spent a few years at regionals have eyes elsewhere... hats, jackets, parking, progression, widebodies...and I get it. The generation before that still seems to have some interest in SWA, I don't know how long or many class spots this will fill.
Talking to friends in training now, some of that attrition is washes, some classes were zero attrition to be fair. A few have left for greener pastures, but I think most airlines are going to see shuffle as pilots go to whatever airline is best for them.
We just need to be patient, let a few other carriers close deals first this time, and hope recruiting becomes a challenge. Our contract and this airline needs to be fixed, it's negotiating season, and we're all abused and overworked right now...but there is still potential here to get back on top. Or maybe not, I guess we'll see, but I'm here for it. The next few years will be telling.
Talking to friends in training now, some of that attrition is washes, some classes were zero attrition to be fair. A few have left for greener pastures, but I think most airlines are going to see shuffle as pilots go to whatever airline is best for them.
We just need to be patient, let a few other carriers close deals first this time, and hope recruiting becomes a challenge. Our contract and this airline needs to be fixed, it's negotiating season, and we're all abused and overworked right now...but there is still potential here to get back on top. Or maybe not, I guess we'll see, but I'm here for it. The next few years will be telling.
03-19-2022, 09:53 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 196
The generation that spent a few years at regionals have eyes elsewhere... hats, jackets, parking, progression, widebodies...and I get it. The generation before that still seems to have some interest in SWA, I don't know how long or many class spots this will fill.
Talking to friends in training now, some of that attrition is washes, some classes were zero attrition to be fair. A few have left for greener pastures, but I think most airlines are going to see shuffle as pilots go to whatever airline is best for them.
We just need to be patient, let a few other carriers close deals first this time, and hope recruiting becomes a challenge. Our contract and this airline needs to be fixed, it's negotiating season, and we're all abused and overworked right now...but there is still potential here to get back on top. Or maybe not, I guess we'll see, but I'm here for it. The next few years will be telling.
Talking to friends in training now, some of that attrition is washes, some classes were zero attrition to be fair. A few have left for greener pastures, but I think most airlines are going to see shuffle as pilots go to whatever airline is best for them.
We just need to be patient, let a few other carriers close deals first this time, and hope recruiting becomes a challenge. Our contract and this airline needs to be fixed, it's negotiating season, and we're all abused and overworked right now...but there is still potential here to get back on top. Or maybe not, I guess we'll see, but I'm here for it. The next few years will be telling.
Training washout? I assume most if not all are prior 121/135/mil jet PIC. Is the training at SW more difficult than others? If not, what’s going on?
03-19-2022, 10:20 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
03-19-2022, 01:05 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Rumor I heard about those guys, esp UA guys who came here, was that it was mainly a political thing - that those guys were pretty strongly anti-vax and the way SWA handled the vaccine issue aligned much more with their political views than their previous employer.
03-19-2022, 03:57 PM
#40
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
I believe earlier ones were. Supposedly some of these guys in the latest class left after completing IOE.
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