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Old 12-05-2020, 04:33 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Lewbronski
As much as I’d like to disagree with you, this is the unfortunate truth. Company management and their FordHarrison attorneys monitor APC.

Paranoid? No.

The 2017 restraining order against Spirit ALPA was granted in part due to the evidence contained in Spirit management’s pleadings that contained pages of quotes from pilots on APC saying things similar to what guys have already said on this thread.

Do not talk about what you will or won’t do if a furlough occurs. The law prevents any change to status quo behavior. Do not debate what a change to status quo means to you on this thread or on any kind of forum that is accessible to anyone that might hand over to management what you or others are saying about what a change to status quo looks like to you.
Sorry, but I'm calling BS here, (and yeah, you're a bit paranoid). If company wants to sue a group of 8000 pilots for "laziness" after they furloughed 1200 of them, go for it. The company of "LUV", that pretty much is "ex-LUV" already, will become a "HATE" company. If uncle Gary wants to go that way based on people not willing to bid on open time, go ahead. It's gonna be brutal and nobody is gonna win. Self destruction doesn't pay. I don't trust management a bit, but I know they're not stupid.
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Old 12-05-2020, 04:56 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by hoover
the company absolutely can sue and will win. It has happened before. If they can show that the pilot group used to pick up x amount of flying and now its x-y they will convince a judge that they cannot do business unless the pilots hold to the norm. And the judge will rubber stamp it.
everyone should do what they want. I'm on ExTO so it's easier for me. All I'm saying is dont think they cant sue and win.
wont work Airtran management started calling people back after 3-4 months on furlough because guys stopped picking up open time. People who picked up open time literally had quiet cockpits and a label attached to them. Same thing happens at every airline. No one is going to yuck it up with some POS while someone is home unemployed worrying about the mortgage !
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:41 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Zman81
wont work Airtran management started calling people back after 3-4 months on furlough because guys stopped picking up open time. People who picked up open time literally had quiet cockpits and a label attached to them. Same thing happens at every airline. No one is going to yuck it up with some POS while someone is home unemployed worrying about the mortgage !
believe me I get it. I was furloughed for over a year and when I came back I had the joy of flying with a guy who bragged how much money he made because there was so much flying to be had.
he literally couldnt look past himself and realize what a dick he is. I'm sure we'll have those here also if furloughs happen. Which I'm willing to bet a beer it doesn't but if it does I'm also going to be buying the beers when those guys come back.
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Old 12-05-2020, 06:45 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Lewbronski
As much as I’d like to disagree with you, this is the unfortunate truth. Company management and their FordHarrison attorneys monitor APC.

Paranoid? No.

The 2017 restraining order against Spirit ALPA was granted in part due to the evidence contained in Spirit management’s pleadings that contained pages of quotes from pilots on APC saying things similar to what guys have already said on this thread.

Do not talk about what you will or won’t do if a furlough occurs. The law prevents any change to status quo behavior. Do not debate what a change to status quo means to you on this thread or on any kind of forum that is accessible to anyone that might hand over to management what you or others are saying about what a change to status quo looks like to you.
He's correct, it's happened right here.

Ya'll be careful out there.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:06 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by at6d
If a furlough happens I will not pick up open time, period.
^^^^THIS^^^^

I will pick up from Trip Trade Give Away but zero open time. Everyone has some reason why they need to pick up — 3rd wife, 2nd boat, whatever........ none of it is any more important than the guy that has no income and kids. C’mon guys — either don’t pick up open time or let’s have a 10% furlough fund.
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:23 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by rightseat
^^^^THIS^^^^

I will pick up from Trip Trade Give Away but zero open time. Everyone has some reason why they need to pick up — 3rd wife, 2nd boat, whatever........ none of it is any more important than the guy that has no income and kids. C’mon guys — either don’t pick up open time or let’s have a 10% furlough fund.

I wrote to my reps and expressed my support for a 10% assessment to cover furloughee health care and financial support for the duration of the furlough.

Regardless of what else we do, that's the right thing. If the company doesn't want to take care of us, then we will take care of each other.


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Old 12-05-2020, 07:24 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by barabek
Sorry, but I'm calling BS here, (and yeah, you're a bit paranoid). If company wants to sue a group of 8000 pilots for "laziness" after they furloughed 1200 of them, go for it. The company of "LUV", that pretty much is "ex-LUV" already, will become a "HATE" company. If uncle Gary wants to go that way based on people not willing to bid on open time, go ahead. It's gonna be brutal and nobody is gonna win. Self destruction doesn't pay. I don't trust management a bit, but I know they're not stupid.
Call BS.

Here are the quotes from the "Complaint for Injunctive Relief" filed May 8, 2017 in the US District Court for the Southern District of Florida against Spirit ALPA's MEC as well as individual members of Spirit's union leadership. Based on this complaint, Spirit was successful in obtaining a restraining order against the named parties which weakened Spirit's bargaining position and put Spirit ALPA in danger of incurring fines if Spirit's pilots didn't cease and desist.

Some Spirit pilots are also promoting refusing open time flying and intimidating pilots who pick up open time flying by denigrating those pilots on the Airline Pilot Central Forum (“APC”). APC is a publicly-accessible forum for pilots, generally grouped by airline, where pilots discuss a wide-range of topics pertaining to their employment, such as the currently ongoing contract negotiations. In approximately the past week, the posts on the APC Spirit blog/page have encouraged pilots to refuse open time and have begun to threaten/harass pilots who do pick up open time flying. These posts expressly tie the refusal to pick up open time to obtaining leverage in the ongoing CBA negotiations with Spirit. For example, recent posts include:
  • “Up to 32 cancellations today again so far. Any ideas on how long these guys will let this go before coming to the table with a real deal?”
  • “Never gets old when 400 of us picketed and when on strike in 2010 for our current contract and today 1500 pilots later we have coworkers taking JAs [junior assignment] to help the company continue the financial growth on our backs, it never gets old. Yesterday we cancelled 19 Today we cancelled 30 Tomorrow we already cancelled 9. Then bob Bendo and jyri will blame these daily cancellations on pilots not taking JAs, and somehow that small percentage will feel guilty and start helping in the name of keep NK3 from sinking. Please.”
  • “Hold every JA accountable. List them all and call them out. Keep up the good work.”
  • “Let's keep it simple: 1: get your awarded line 2: finesse it with IOT [Initial Open Time] and DOT [Daily Open Time] to make it commutable or higher credit without sacrificing days off when possible. (This includes you too TX conflict guys. If after the conflict, you have 18 days off then try to keep it at 18.) 3: fly your line 4: when at work, fly the contract. No waivers and no favors. 5: enjoy your days off and forget you have a phone. Pretty simple. If everyone just did this we'd have a contract by mid summer.”
  • “Don't fall the tricks of crew scheduling. Flica alerts filled with trips finishing up in a base then next day deadhead back to the base that has crews not picking up the trip. Don't fall for the easy three day which is actually two if you get released from the last day deadhead. All you are doing is saving the company a lot of phone calls and ultimately a cancelled flight out of a base that's holding the line and doing whatever it takes. Don't undermine the guys that are fighting for your next contract. Stay home and enjoy your family time. Your days off are your days off.”
  • [Discussing how a pilot was credited 212 hours in March 2017]: “In your list of ways to get that much credit you forgot be a total hour ***** and sell you union brother and hope of a contract down the river.”
  • “Below min guar[antee] myself. It’s hard to have the conviction and discipline not to pick up good trips! Look at the downside though.”
  • “Several calls in the last 24 hours for JAs that I turned down yet no cancellations. What Vegas captains are turning my sacrifice into opportunity? If I’m going to lose on the money then these people should have consequences.”
  • “Nice job LAS CAs…flight 170 is over 5 hours late…no Captain to be found…Clearly you did not like the fact another airline made gains today while we lag. As far as the others…Flica hasn’t updated the JRM [junior man] log…here are recent chokers [names were ultimately deleted from the post by the site administrator.]”
  • “Thanks to whoever just snagged that Denver overnight out of Vegas they were calling for all afternoon. Shmuck.”
  • “Who was it? These people are going to find themselves on a Webpage dedicated to choking really soon.”
  • [Regarding a pilot who picked up an open shift from DFW-LAS] “He has been counseled repeatedly, including immediately before accepting this, about his behavior. Don’t let his green lanyard fool you, he doesn’t give two ///// about you or your fellow pilots. He will stab you in the back while smiling at your face. Be careful.”
  • “Everyone needs to educate capt hat wearer in ord about his availability. It’s disgusting!!! Every single month this happens.”
  • [Regarding a post by the moderator that if people “persist in posting names and using profanity,” then the thread will be closed] “If people are using this forum as a tool to post names and take accountability, it will be done. A Movement is clearly underway. Close this thread…another will open…ban one member, he/she will be back with another account…Close the Spirit sub-thread and it will end up of the main page for Majors.”
  • “Who’s the dips@$t on the SA [standing available] list CA side in Vegas. Anyone know him that can educate him?”
  • [Regarding a flight that was 12 hours delayed] “I am proud!! I think rather than cancellations they delay until they can get someone to fold. It's just another indication that they are loosing this fight. Showing delays looks better than cancellations. Stay tough. Encourage everyone you fly with to spend that time off with family this summer. Turn off the phone on days off to make sure your rested up for you next trip. No extensions! No help.
  • [Responding to the comment that stated: “When we sign a deal it will be because of u 10 genius guys on this board”] “The fact that you think it’s 10 guys just nullified anything you say. WHATEVER IT TAKES.
  • “[H]ow you cant see the pressure [cancelled flights] will bring is bewildering. Think of it like lots of mini strikes!! I just cancelled a couple days ago for lack of front end crew…Believe me, its more than 10 guys [who are participating in these efforts]! Will this MAKE them come to the table? Maybe…maybe not. But it has to be putting a little pressure on them…I’ve always been a fan of a good JA (especially since they don’t make it to me very often) yet not anymore. Just turned down a couple these last couple days. And I have a feeling more calls will be coming tomorrow. The only decision I’ll have to make is whether to let it go to voicemail, or pick up to mess with them a bit!”
  • “54 cancellations so far today via flightaware. Does the company have a good argument for a lawsuit? Sure, but a lawsuit would just push the aggression to the company that much farther resulting in fueling the fire and.....more cancelled flights costing them more money in the long run. Bring on the lawsuit...54 cancellations can easily turn into 154 cancellations. Ladies and gents, I believe things are about to get very ugly...”
After six more pages of explanation in the pleadings, Spirit continued to quote from APC:

On May 5, 2017, Spirit suffered 52 flight cancellations due to pilot unavailability. ALPA sent a communication to pilots at the end of the day on May 5, 2017, which admitted that Spirit was suffering an unusual number of flight cancellations and further admitted that the union and its members were responsible by law to stop the concerted refusal to pick up open time and accept junior assignments. ALPA’s communication stated that: “Over the past several days, Spirit Airlines has experienced a high level of flight cancellations” and asserted that the Company “has accused the Association and Sprit pilots of instigating a concerted action to disrupt operations by discouraging pilots from picking up this flying.” ALPA conceded that “In this situation, there is no question that ALPA and its members are required by the Railway Labor Act to make every reasonable effort to restore and preserve Spirit’s normal operations. This means not banding together to avoid or advocate avoiding open time and taking all steps necessary to assure that pilots who decide to pick up open time are not harassed or discouraged from doing so.” Following this communication, Spirit pilots posted further comments on the APC that confirmed that the pilots were engaged in a planned, concerted effort to refuse open time flying during the month of May, referred to by at least one pilot on the forum as the “May Massacre.” For example:
  • “The Company doesn't think that the pilot contract is important so I’m using my contractual rights to do other things. See you in June!”
  • “June will be just fine, Bendo! Don’t change a thing.”
  • “Now the Company wants me to give up my personal time to clean up their mess? Sorry NO! I'm sure the June bid cycle will be fine!”
  • “Exactly! We our doing this on our own will. Let's all stay strong till we get to the finish line. Keep spreading the word and educating the new guys coming on to the line. Pretty soon the company has to give.”
  • “Haha just got the email from the union. It’s working boys and girls! Keep up the good work, don’t help the company out. Pretty sure we will see light at the end of the tunnel.”
  • “It would only be a special kind of dumbass that would even consider picking up more because of this stupid threat. "OMG.....the company is threatening lawsuit......we could get in really really really big trouble......I better go work on my day off"! The only ones I think we'd have to worry about are the ones we've finally turned to see the light go back to their choking ways while justifying it!
  • I've really never studied the history of past pilot groups suffering any ill fate due to the so called work actions. It just baffles me that any court would even consider awarding retribution if people simply don't want to work on their days off! Kind of mind blowing......”
  • “As of a moment ago, we’re up to 82 cx’d. High Five! This management team are a fraud and useless.”
  • “I wonder how realistic it for management to say. "We can't have anymore cancelled flights. Here's a TA" with all the transition conflicts and not picking up the phone seems to be the best leverage the pilot group have so far.”
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Old 12-05-2020, 07:34 PM
  #108  
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And the results?
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:07 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by at6d
And the results?
As I said above, Spirit was successful in obtaining a restraining order. That order said:

ORDER GRANTING TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER; SETTING BRIEFING SCHEDULE AND HEARING ON MOTION FOR PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION
THIS CAUSE came before the Court on the Emergency Motion for a Temporary Restraining Order (“TRO”) and Preliminary Injunctive (“PI”) Relief (the “Motion”) [DE 4] filed by Plaintiff Spirit Airlines, Inc. (“Spirit”). The Court has carefully reviewed the Motion, the record in this case, and is otherwise fully advised in the premises.
FINDINGS
1. Defendants are the Air Line Pilots Association, International (“ALPA”), which represents pilots at Spirit, the ALPA Master Executive Council (“MEC”), a representative body that, under ALPA’s Constitution and Bylaws, makes all decisions on matters affecting Spirit pilots; MEC Chairman Captain Stuart Morrison, MEC Vice Chairman Captain Brian Coley, and MEC Secretary-Treasurer Captain Michael LoRusso; as well as MEC members Captain Todd Hirshon, First Officer Michael Luckstone, Captain Ryan Pachkofsky, Captain James Ackerman, Captain Tim Connors and First Officer Antonio Nassar; and MEC Negotiating Committee Members Captain Paul Slotten and Captain Michael Matyas (collectively, “Defendants”).
2. Spirit seeks to enjoin Defendants, and all persons acting in concert therewith, including all of ALPA’s individual members, from calling, permitting, instigating, authorizing, encouraging, participating in, approving, or continuing any form of interference with Plaintiff’s airline operations, including, but not limited to, any strike, work stoppage, sick-out, slowdown, work to rule campaign, concerted refusal to accept voluntary or overtime (“open time” or “junior assignment”) flight assignments, or other concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations, including but not limited to, slow taxiing, writing up maintenance items, calling in fatigued, delaying flights, refusing to answer a call from the scheduling, refusing to fly an aircraft that meets legal requirements for flight, or refusing to accept voluntary or overtime flying, in violation of the Railway Labor Act, 45 U.S.C. § 151 et seq. (the “RLA”).
3. Plaintiff is a “common carrier by air” as defined in the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 and a “carrier” as defined by the RLA. Defendant ALPA is a labor organization that is the certified bargaining representative of Plaintiff’s pilots. Defendant MEC is a representative body that, under the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws, makes all decisions on matters affecting Spirit pilots.
4. Based upon the Complaint for Injunctive Relief [DE 1], Motion and Memorandum in Support of Plaintiff’s Motion for a Temporary Restraining Order and Preliminary Injunctive Relief [DE 4], and Affidavits, it appears to the Court that a TRO should issue because Spirit is likely to succeed on the merits of its claims that Defendants are violating the RLA, and because immediate, substantial and irreparable damage, injury or loss will result to Spirit before a hearing on its request for a PI can be had.1 Unless this Court issues a TRO restraining Defendants from the actions described below, Plaintiff will suffer immediate and irreparable damage in the form of damage to its business reputation and customer goodwill, increased costs for measures designed to avoid flight delays and cancellations, and loss of revenue and associated costs caused by flight delays and cancellations, none of which may be recoverable from Defendants, and much of which can never be recovered. Spirit has shown, through affidavits, that it will suffer substantial and irreparable injury without the TRO. See [DEs 4-1; 4-2]. It further appears that unless such activity is restrained, the travel plans of large numbers of Plaintiff’s customers will be disrupted, and the public will be deprived of transportation services, causing serious and substantial damage to the public interest.2
5. It further appears to the Court that if the TRO is issued and final judgment in granted in favor of Defendants, the injury to Defendants, if any, will be minor when compared with the loss and hardship that Plaintiff and the public will suffer if the TRO is not issued, and, furthermore, that any such injury suffered by Defendants will be adequately indemnified by bond.
TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER
IT IS ORDERED that the Defendants, and each of them, their members, agents, and employees, and all persons and organizations acting by, in concert with, through, or under them, or by and through its or their orders, are hereby temporarily restrained, pending a hearing on the PI in this matter, from calling, permitting, instigating, authorizing, encouraging, participating in, approving, or continuing any form of interference with Plaintiff’s airline operations, including, but not limited to, any strike, work stoppage, sick-out, slowdown, work to rule campaign, concerted refusal to accept voluntary or overtime flight assignments, or other concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations consistent with the status quo, including but not limited to, slow taxiing, writing up maintenance items, calling in fatigued, delaying flights, refusing to answer a call from the scheduling, refusing to fly an aircraft that meets legal requirements for flight, or refusing to accept voluntary or overtime flying, in violation of the RLA, 45 U.S.C. § 151 et seq.
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that Defendants shall take all reasonable steps within their power to prevent the aforesaid actions and to immediately cease the aforesaid actions from continuing if commenced, including, but not limited to, the following:
(a) Instructing all pilots represented by Defendant ALPA, and employed by Plaintiff, to resume their normal working schedule and practices and providing Plaintiff a copy of all such instructions;
(b) Notifying all pilots represented by Defendant ALPA, and employed by Plaintiff, by the most expeditious means possible, of the issuance, contents, and meaning of this TRO and providing Plaintiff a copy of all such notices;
(c) Including in such notice a directive from ALPA to Spirit’s pilots not to engage in a concerted refusal to perform normal pilot operations consistent with the status quo, including but not limited to: slow taxiing, writing up maintenance items, calling in fatigued, delaying flights, refusing to answer a call from the scheduling, refusing to fly an aircraft that meets legal requirements for flight, refusing to accept voluntary or overtime flying (“open time” or “junior assignment”), or otherwise engaging in a concerted refusal to conduct pilot operations in the normal manner, and to cease and desist all such activity; and to cease and desist all exhortations or communications encouraging same; and failure to follow this directive may result in fine, suspension, or other sanction by ALPA;
(d) Posting the notice described above on Defendants’ internet websites and social media accounts and providing Plaintiff a copy of the notices;
(e) Including the contents of such notice on all recorded telephone hotlines under control of Defendants, until such time as the Court has ruled upon Plaintiff’s Motion for a PI, and providing Plaintiff a copy of all such messages; and
(f) Distributing the contents of such notice through all non-public communication systems maintained by Defendants, including any telephone trees, pilot-to-pilot communication systems, or similar systems, and providing Plaintiff a copy of the notices.
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that by 5 p.m. on May 10, 2017, Defendants must file sworn affidavits describing the methods used to effect the notice described above to all pilots represented by Defendant ALPA; Defendants must also file copies of all notices required to be furnished to Plaintiff by Defendants under this TRO.
BOND TO BE POSTED
This TRO is issued on the condition that a bond be filed by Plaintiff herein on or before May 10, 2017 at noon, in the sum of $50,000, and that Defendants shall recover from Plaintiff under said bond all costs and damages, if any, suffered by them in the event that Plaintiff does not succeed in this action.
Another order from the court a few days later put the TRO in effect until the conclusion of a 30-day cooling off period or the ratification of a new CBA. After the TRO was issued, Spirit ALPA was able to get their pilots to knock off the "concerted action". Had they not been able to do so, they could have faced getting hit with an enormous fine or damages that could have potentially hobbled their union. In 1999, for example, APA was fined $46 million for not getting a pilot sick-out under control. In today's dollars, that's about $71.9 million.

Perhaps worse than the potential for incurring a crippling fine or having to pay damages is that Spirit ALPA being found in the wrong significantly hampered their leverage in negotiations. That gave the NMB mediator in their case all the reason they needed to not declare an impasse anytime in the foreseeable future. The threat of an impasse being declared is what generates leverage in negotiations between labor and management under the RLA. With that threat essentially removed, Spirit ALPA's leverage was effectively neutered. It greatly weakened their position.
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:07 PM
  #110  
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How about something closer to home?

https://www.courthousenews.com/south...zed-mechanics/
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