RJSAviator76

Yep, I remember that and you're right, it was an insurance thing.

So you were actually clairvoyant and chose to pay for your 737 type rating in order to avoid the entire mess that followed 9/11, the lost decade, etc. Wow, I bow to the Oracle.

Perhaps "y'all" would have been more appropriate and easier to understand?



Come on Slip... NO major airline required type ratings except SW and you know it. NO national airline required type ratings, either. Trannies didn't pay for their DC-9 or 737 types. Buying a type rating for an interview is not even the same friggin sport as paying for your private or commercial, and you know it.

If I could go back 25 years, I'd just buy a winning lottery ticket or two, get a G-IV and offer you to fly me around, but only as long as you bought your own type rating...

Read above... no other major or national airline required applicants to have type ratings in their equipment just to get an interview, let alone a job.


Why do you think that is? Think about it. Every other airline would hire from the same pool of pilots - military, civilian, corporate, etc. So shutting up and coloring must be from the water in Dallas then...

I also hate to disappoint you, I don't think I'm a koolaid drinker either, but unlike you, I do have faith in our pilot group. I have to. But again, unlike you, I won't disparage them for voting counter to my vote. My only hope is that everyone makes an informed vote and that's why historical perspectives and analyses matter and that's why I urge you to keep writing but preferably without disparaging remarks because the message gets lost. I also don't sit here and gripe all day about what an industry-lagging place this is. I play the cards I've been dealt and do OK. If that's koolaid drinking to you... oh well!

But to finally bring it all down, I'm glad that your career choices worked out for you. You acted in your best self-interests, much like 5 out of every 6 pilots did when they voted on TA2. You're pointing out how we settle for less than industry-leading or industry-standard and you did the same when you bought your type. To put it nicely... be nice, but preach on.

Cheers!

SlipKid

I paid for a type rating to get the best job available at the time. The rest was kismet, so un bow.


C'mon RJ. NO majors were hiring and you know it. NO nationals either.


That might be true, but many of them paid for their actual jobs at Valujet, regardless of the type ratings they held prior.

Many of them also crossed a certain line at a large major in 1989. I am pretty sure we inherited and injected a substantial number of those "career defenders" into our seniority list during the Tran acquisition, so maybe a different example would better prove your point.

All of them, including the type, were required to meet the minimum hiring qualifications for the job at SW.

It's definitely not the same as voting yes on concessions to the most profitable airline in the US, that you already work for either.


Nice deflection.

I'd pass.



Read above. No major or national airlines were hiring, rendering that point moot. I "played the cards I was dealt".

A little history:

Since we were pretty much the only act in town, SW had lines of applicants out the door when I got hired in the mid '90's.

We were hiring something on the order of 1 out of every 12 applicants, and they got thousands of applications on the one day per year that the apps were accepted. The app had to be postmarked on that particular day or they'd reject it.

It took me over a year to get the interview call, then another 6 months for the class date. I was the only one hired in my interview group of a dozen or so.

Even after the rest of the industry started hiring again, we still required the type, and still got thousands of apps every time the window briefly opened up.


Good a theory as any.

I've always figured that they inject some kind of kool aid spray, that only a few (16%?) are immune to, into the ventilation systems at the GO and TC.

I certainly got lucky, and I am the first to admit that. But it wasn't entirely luck. I had the opportunity to go to 2 legacies, which I was definitely open to, a few years after getting hired here. I kept my apps up to date, and ended up interviewing/getting job offers from both of them.

I am nothing if not pragmatic, so, in the end, I passed on both, mainly because they'd been hiring like gangbusters for a year prior, a recession was looming, and I didn't want to be on the bottom of a list when the music inevitably stopped. I was 2/3 of the way up the FO list here at the time, and upgrade was less than 2 years away.

While, in the long run, I would've been far better off at either under their pre 9/11 contracts, especially wrt retirement, I simply couldn't afford a potential, years long furlough. And that was before 9/11.

I didn't exactly harm the profession either.

Of course I looked after my own self interest and that of my career. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.


Umm, I've voted no on every concession that the 84%ers have granted over the last 22+ years...

LOL... They've screwed themselves/us over and over again. How, exactly, is that looking after their best interests?


As I said, give them a chance. Once the Kool Aid wears off, I think you'll come around. Or you'll pull a SMITR. I'm giving 50/50 odds right now.


Wait a few years, then tell me how much faith you've got in this pilot group. That's why I urge you to keep reading and researching some history of this place. You'll find that the disparagement is well earned.

True. You work 20+ days per month and then turn around and tell everyone on here how easy it is to make more than your friends at the legacies. Then you disparage those of us that point it out. Not exactly a model of "career defender".

The irony of this statement is, quite frankly, staggering.

Me too.

Since when is shooting yourself in the foot, repeatedly, acting in your best self (not to mention the group's) -interest?

Paying for training/college etc. to meet minimum hiring requirements is far different, for example, than voting to effectively pay to fly a larger airplane at a profitable major that you already work for.



Thanks for the advice, mom.

RJSAviator76

Slip, you keep talking about voting against concessions.

Voting to freeze/terminate your A-plan and turning it over to PBGC and getting 20 cents on a dollar if you're lucky, is a concession. Voting to accept a smaller NEC contribution when you don't even have one to begin with isn't. It may be selling yourself short, but it ain't a concession.

Voting to take a paycut from $231.54/TFP to $162.07 (30% paycut) is a concession. Accepting the same rate across all versions of 737's without taking a pay cut is not. Naive maybe, shouldn't have happened, but it's not a concession.

A concession in our world is when you give up something you have. To say this pilot group voted for concessions is false equivalency and is insulting to those of us who have been down that road.

Also, I don't disparage you for pointing out that I may be working more than my peers at legacies. In fact, I encourage you to, but please be objective and accurate.

SlipKid

I am well aware of the definition of concession. I encourage you to take a look back at the stuff that this pilot group has voted to give up over the years, and get back to me. A lot of the things you and everyone else complains about are the direct result of either a membership vote, or SWApA unilaterally imposing it on us.


Feel free to point out any inaccuracies.

Proximity

I was thinking if there was an award for the most negative poster in the Southwest threads at APC, it would be SlipKid. I kinda of sympathized because I understand some of your issues, but then I saw you call out another poster by name and in my mind, you crossed a line.

I wonder, what is you purpose of posting here? It's certainly not to educate, as your high and mighty "Dad knows best" style of posting likely falls on deaf ears with most the FOs and recent Captains.

In contrast to WHACK, who has some basis to complain, I think you might be somewhat cocooned in your own success. You came here at just the right time, upgraded in around 4-5 years (internet is not as anonymous as you might think), and spent the "lost decade" in the left seat while many of us the post here had our careers put on hold by age 65 and two recessions.

I don't mean to disparage anyone who's been successful, in fact, that's great that you did so well. Moreover, some of your success was due to deciding to stick around SWA before 9/11, in contrast to most pilots who's successes are just dumb luck.

However, I think a little humbleness would go a long way. Some of your complaints are due to changes in the way Southwest operates overall, and/or have been beneficial to the pilot group as a whole. For example, the lack of PM trips in MCO is because trips were changed to reduce fatigue to the whole pilot group. The willingness of CAs in MCO to fly weekends is likely due to pilot group aging and no longer having children as home. Your issues with your commute are due to infrastructure problems in SW Florida, not anything to do with SWA or SWAPA. The reduction in TFP/day is partly due to longer turn times in order to fix our OTP.

When you posted that RJS should "do his research" I'm sure you know the difficulty in doing so. I'm willing though to give you benefit the doubt if you can list out three major concessions (more if you want) that this pilot group and/or SWAPA has agreed to during your tenure at SWA. I'd have to agree with RJS that flying the 800s for the same rates, while a naive move, was not a concession, so make your issues good ones.

Looking forward to your response.

SlipKid

No argument there.

I, uncharacteristically, allowed that poster to get to me when he got personal. Mea Culpa.

I've already apologized to him.


Nothing new there.

You're 100% right, it is a complete waste of time, since you guys will continue to do the same things I and others warn you about.

You guys can keep telling potential recruits about how "easy" it is to earn 150+ tfp per month, only working a "few extra days".

S.A.I.E.W.

I have never complained about how my career at SW has played out. I wouldn't trade careers with the vast majority of my contemporaries.

I am not going down the AT SLI rabbit hole and who was harmed/who wasn't. Through no fault, (or credit) of my own, I was not harmed in the least. Well, other than a few scabs, that are all gone now, placed before me on the list.

I am aware that the internet is not anonymous (especially when you're friends with a moderator ). I always assume that folks know who I am, mainly because I don't go to great lengths to hide it. Conversely, it's pretty easy to figure out who many of the other prolific posters are.

No argument whatsoever. It WAS mostly dumb luck that it's worked out well here for me, and I've said it, repeatedly.

How ironic.

How is disproportionately forcing AM (or PM trips, for that matter) on select parts of the pilot group beneficial for the whole group?


They are? Weekday trips are gone out of ELITT/TTGA by the time you get a LT text.

I never would've guessed. I've also never blamed SWA or SWApA for it, so why even bring it up?

It's not that difficult, although the forum scrub didn't help much.


A few, off the top of my head, that have cost the most QOL and pay are:

Since you mentioned it..... SL6.

True, we get the same hourly rate for the -800, but because of the longer turn times, we're working longer days for the same or less pay. Many of us argued, before the vote, that the rig needed to be adjusted to reflect the longer turn times/days.

Another great one associated with the 800 was the concession of retro in 2012, due to the 0% raise SWApA skilfully "negotiated" for the contract extension that was inexplicably attached to SL6.
We paid and are still paying to fly the 800. Now the longer turn times have trickled down to the entire fleet.

DTC. Forced on us by SWApA a few years after ELITT started. They were so awesome, that we voted in far more DTC in the next contract, which we still have today. It could've been worse. The 2009 TA1 included roughly twice the allowable DTC than we ended up with in TA2. DTC easily costs a few K per month, not to mention a lot more time on ELITT/TTGA if you're unfortunate enough to get stuck starting on a friday or saturday.

Evisceration of the lance program. Much like DTC, this was like throwing sand in the cogs of the flexibility machine, which directly affects pay and QOL.

SL17. We allowed synthetic restrictions, that the company is allowed to violate at will. Although it's not an issue nowadays due to lack of open time, back when we had open time, I was constantly hitting a block or duty restriction when trying to trade or pick up, again, costing money.

Other notables:

SL12/14, the Duplex Strategery. Ever wonder why you get happy meals on international trips.

JA at work instead of home officially turned all of us into online reserves. Definite QOL concession, even though the 6.5 for being forced to work your day off is "double" time.

That'll get you started.

symbian simian

Great job guys, 4 pages without a single "PBS", "line" or "bidding"

ZapBrannigan

I have vacation in November. Started off with a line that has 4 weekend trips. Two of those trips dropped because they touched the vacation week. Full pay on one, partial pay on the other. That left me with days off from the 6th through the 24th.

During line improvement I moved the trip on the 24th to the 30th. Now off from the 6th through the 30th... all with one week of vacation. I was never able to do anything like that with PBS at brand X.

(I’m sure I’ll fly a few days in there somewhere to pad the pay... but the point is, I don’t have to!)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SlipKid

Amen brother. Our system isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn good.

Proximity

I have vacation 1st week of December...unfortunately that means they don't pull it until December bid is out. So when ELITT started I couldn't move my trip on the 23rd because I was over on block. I managed to catch a couple NZs but the 23rd went red. I've already told SWAPA the buffers/block restrictions are crap and I hope they are fixed. I have reserve this weekend I promise you I'm going to fly much closing to zero block then 20. Since you always underblock, the further out a block limit is, the less affect it should have on you.

Point is I understand some of the stuff SlipKid brought up.