Outsider looking in
10-06-2018, 12:05 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 843
Is the commuting stress everyone refers to more associated with trying to get to and from work via jumpseat/ standby.
The big issue for me was the amount of time I lost by commuting. Most of Southwest's trips either start super early in the morning (so you have to come the night before), or end late enough that there aren't any flights home by the time you get back to your base. So either way, you're staying the night away from home, on your own dime.
Here's a real world example: I fly "PM" (afternoon/evening) trips. My show time for the trip I'm on right now was 12:45pm. If I had to commute, the only flight that gets me in before 11:45am (required to protect me under our commuter policy) leaves home at 6:10am, arriving at my base at 8:40am.
Realistically, that means I would have to leave my house at 4:30am to get parked, get to the gate, check in for the jumpseat, commute, then sit around for four hours until my check-in time.
Now to the end of the trip. I get to my base at 6:50pm this evening. The last flight on us back to my former home leaves at 3:40pm. The only other option to get home leaves at 7:15, has a 3-hour layover in LAX, and is in another terminal. If by some miracle I got in early enough to make it, it lands at 2:34am. Realistically, I'm spending another night at my base and taking the first one out in Sunday morning, which leaves at 9:50am and lands at home at 12:30pm.
So as a local, this 3-day trip has me leaves the house at noon, and be back in my living room by around 7:30. 55.5 hours away from my house.
As a commuter, that same 3-day trip would have me leave my house at 4:30am, and get home at 1:30pm on day 4. That's 81 hours away, plus the cost of a hotel or crashpad.
This is kind of an edge case because 12:45 is a pretty early report for a PM trip. I've had many that report after dinner, and those would at least make the day 1 commute more palatable and give you a few more hours at home. Still, very few of our trips allow a commute at the other end of the trip. The same trip structure that makes our trips great for people that live in base makes them difficult for people that commute.
It's workable, but plan on losing 3-4 days of your life per month for the commute. If you're going by car as you're suggesting, that gives you the option of traveling the same day that an air commuter wouldn't have, but also consider whether you'll be safe for four hours on the road after working all day and landing at 1am. I know I wouldn't be.
10-06-2018, 12:23 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
I used to commute from Hartford to Albany for an old commuter airline job, which was about a two hour drive, and it was fine. At four hours, I might commute by air if the schedules permitted, but only you can make that call.
I commuted for my first six months at Southwest. Honestly, there wasn't really any stress with it. We have a commuter policy that, in a nutshell, won't get you in trouble if you aren't able to get on your commuter flight(s).
The big issue for me was the amount of time I lost by commuting. Most of Southwest's trips either start super early in the morning (so you have to come the night before), or end late enough that there aren't any flights home by the time you get back to your base. So either way, you're staying the night away from home, on your own dime.
Here's a real world example: I fly "PM" (afternoon/evening) trips. My show time for the trip I'm on right now was 12:45pm. If I had to commute, the only flight that gets me in before 11:45am (required to protect me under our commuter policy) leaves home at 6:10am, arriving at my base at 8:40am.
Realistically, that means I would have to leave my house at 4:30am to get parked, get to the gate, check in for the jumpseat, commute, then sit around for four hours until my check-in time.
Now to the end of the trip. I get to my base at 6:50pm this evening. The last flight on us back to my former home leaves at 3:40pm. The only other option to get home leaves at 7:15, has a 3-hour layover in LAX, and is in another terminal. If by some miracle I got in early enough to make it, it lands at 2:34am. Realistically, I'm spending another night at my base and taking the first one out in Sunday morning, which leaves at 9:50am and lands at home at 12:30pm.
So as a local, this 3-day trip has me leaves the house at noon, and be back in my living room by around 7:30. 55.5 hours away from my house.
As a commuter, that same 3-day trip would have me leave my house at 4:30am, and get home at 1:30pm on day 4. That's 81 hours away, plus the cost of a hotel or crashpad.
This is kind of an edge case because 12:45 is a pretty early report for a PM trip. I've had many that report after dinner, and those would at least make the day 1 commute more palatable and give you a few more hours at home. Still, very few of our trips allow a commute at the other end of the trip. The same trip structure that makes our trips great for people that live in base makes them difficult for people that commute.
It's workable, but plan on losing 3-4 days of your life per month for the commute. If you're going by car as you're suggesting, that gives you the option of traveling the same day that an air commuter wouldn't have, but also consider whether you'll be safe for four hours on the road after working all day and landing at 1am. I know I wouldn't be.
I commuted for my first six months at Southwest. Honestly, there wasn't really any stress with it. We have a commuter policy that, in a nutshell, won't get you in trouble if you aren't able to get on your commuter flight(s).
The big issue for me was the amount of time I lost by commuting. Most of Southwest's trips either start super early in the morning (so you have to come the night before), or end late enough that there aren't any flights home by the time you get back to your base. So either way, you're staying the night away from home, on your own dime.
Here's a real world example: I fly "PM" (afternoon/evening) trips. My show time for the trip I'm on right now was 12:45pm. If I had to commute, the only flight that gets me in before 11:45am (required to protect me under our commuter policy) leaves home at 6:10am, arriving at my base at 8:40am.
Realistically, that means I would have to leave my house at 4:30am to get parked, get to the gate, check in for the jumpseat, commute, then sit around for four hours until my check-in time.
Now to the end of the trip. I get to my base at 6:50pm this evening. The last flight on us back to my former home leaves at 3:40pm. The only other option to get home leaves at 7:15, has a 3-hour layover in LAX, and is in another terminal. If by some miracle I got in early enough to make it, it lands at 2:34am. Realistically, I'm spending another night at my base and taking the first one out in Sunday morning, which leaves at 9:50am and lands at home at 12:30pm.
So as a local, this 3-day trip has me leaves the house at noon, and be back in my living room by around 7:30. 55.5 hours away from my house.
As a commuter, that same 3-day trip would have me leave my house at 4:30am, and get home at 1:30pm on day 4. That's 81 hours away, plus the cost of a hotel or crashpad.
This is kind of an edge case because 12:45 is a pretty early report for a PM trip. I've had many that report after dinner, and those would at least make the day 1 commute more palatable and give you a few more hours at home. Still, very few of our trips allow a commute at the other end of the trip. The same trip structure that makes our trips great for people that live in base makes them difficult for people that commute.
It's workable, but plan on losing 3-4 days of your life per month for the commute. If you're going by car as you're suggesting, that gives you the option of traveling the same day that an air commuter wouldn't have, but also consider whether you'll be safe for four hours on the road after working all day and landing at 1am. I know I wouldn't be.
I've chosen my current situation so I have nobody to blame but myself if I don't like it. CA1900 is totally right about the time lost. It's several days per month just lost.
I work AM trips and usually drive in the day before. I work at MDW so I prefer to drive in early enough to avoid bad Chicago traffic. That means arriving mid-afternoon at the latest. I try to get trips that end early enough to have something of the day left over when I get home but it often doesn't really work out like that. After all is said and done it's not as fatiguing and draining as commuting by airplane, but it's not that great either. The main difference is that I'm on my own schedule.
I can sell my house next August with no negative tax implications and I'm strongly considering moving to one of the domiciles. Having lived in base before, I say with confidence that it is totally life changing for the better. Driving is better than flying, but living right there is best. This is, literally, a part time job when you live in base.
10-06-2018, 03:22 PM
#13
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Position: Test Pilot
Posts: 13
I've got a similar story. An outsider looking in, I've got a good Part 91 job that is very unique; 9 to 5, five days a week with lots of vacation potential.
I live near MCI and won't move (at least for a long time). My entire extended family is within 20 minutes of me, and when you have kids that's a luxury for all involved.
The down side to my job is that the flying is 20% of the job, and the other 80% accounts for 100% of the stress. I go on a one week vacation next week, and when I get back in the office I'll have 400 emails to read and address, and a stack of problems that will accumulate while I'm gone that I'll have to work overtime to get caught up on.
My lifestyle doesn't require that I make a ton of money, and I value quality time home with my kids more than making top dollar every month (my wife works and I have additional sources of income, which helps big time).
Like mine, your analysis will revolve around what you're trying to accomplish. If you need/want lots of money AND need/want lots of time at home, commuting will work against both of those requirements.
If I go the airline route, I know I'm going to commute and I accept that I'm going to give one extra night to the job on my own dime for each trip, and that's just part of the job.
The upside, as it appears to me at Southwest anyway, is that I have a little bit of control over how many trips I take and how many nights I'm away. If I can arrange a typical month to fly 4 trips for a total of 12 to 14 days of flying, that means I'm home 15 to 16 days a month even with a half day commute on one side of the trip or the other. And those are quality days off with no lingering stress carried over from one day to the next (other than how to get back to work). That beats the weekends I'm home now, along with the nights with my kids that I wasn't really the dad I want to be; my kids feel my stress too.
It helps knowing that I'd have numerous non-stops per day to/from MCI to MDW/DAL/DEN/HOU on SWA, with additional options on metal sporting different logos if necessary.
It's all about attitude. If you know you'll commute, make it part of the cost of having the job and do it anyway. Otherwise your attitude about it will stink and commuting will suck the life out of you.
-Slip
I live near MCI and won't move (at least for a long time). My entire extended family is within 20 minutes of me, and when you have kids that's a luxury for all involved.
The down side to my job is that the flying is 20% of the job, and the other 80% accounts for 100% of the stress. I go on a one week vacation next week, and when I get back in the office I'll have 400 emails to read and address, and a stack of problems that will accumulate while I'm gone that I'll have to work overtime to get caught up on.
My lifestyle doesn't require that I make a ton of money, and I value quality time home with my kids more than making top dollar every month (my wife works and I have additional sources of income, which helps big time).
Like mine, your analysis will revolve around what you're trying to accomplish. If you need/want lots of money AND need/want lots of time at home, commuting will work against both of those requirements.
If I go the airline route, I know I'm going to commute and I accept that I'm going to give one extra night to the job on my own dime for each trip, and that's just part of the job.
The upside, as it appears to me at Southwest anyway, is that I have a little bit of control over how many trips I take and how many nights I'm away. If I can arrange a typical month to fly 4 trips for a total of 12 to 14 days of flying, that means I'm home 15 to 16 days a month even with a half day commute on one side of the trip or the other. And those are quality days off with no lingering stress carried over from one day to the next (other than how to get back to work). That beats the weekends I'm home now, along with the nights with my kids that I wasn't really the dad I want to be; my kids feel my stress too.
It helps knowing that I'd have numerous non-stops per day to/from MCI to MDW/DAL/DEN/HOU on SWA, with additional options on metal sporting different logos if necessary.
It's all about attitude. If you know you'll commute, make it part of the cost of having the job and do it anyway. Otherwise your attitude about it will stink and commuting will suck the life out of you.
-Slip
10-07-2018, 05:39 AM
#16
weekends off? Nope...
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 2,021
I'm OAK based... 9pm-1am seems to be the range with the bulk of PMs getting in between 10 and 11:30p. Saturday PMs are nice because they tend to get in a couple hours earlier. I've had a few get back as early as 8pm. The commuters are always racing to catch their very last flights out to SEA/PDX/GEG/BOI/SLC/ONT/LAX which all seem to push around 10-1030pm. Fortunately I don't need to worry about my car leaving without me...
10-07-2018, 07:40 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
I used to commute from Hartford to Albany for an old commuter airline job, which was about a two hour drive, and it was fine. At four hours, I might commute by air if the schedules permitted, but only you can make that call.
I commuted for my first six months at Southwest. Honestly, there wasn't really any stress with it. We have a commuter policy that, in a nutshell, won't get you in trouble if you aren't able to get on your commuter flight(s).
The big issue for me was the amount of time I lost by commuting. Most of Southwest's trips either start super early in the morning (so you have to come the night before), or end late enough that there aren't any flights home by the time you get back to your base. So either way, you're staying the night away from home, on your own dime.
Here's a real world example: I fly "PM" (afternoon/evening) trips. My show time for the trip I'm on right now was 12:45pm. If I had to commute, the only flight that gets me in before 11:45am (required to protect me under our commuter policy) leaves home at 6:10am, arriving at my base at 8:40am.
Realistically, that means I would have to leave my house at 4:30am to get parked, get to the gate, check in for the jumpseat, commute, then sit around for four hours until my check-in time.
Now to the end of the trip. I get to my base at 6:50pm this evening. The last flight on us back to my former home leaves at 3:40pm. The only other option to get home leaves at 7:15, has a 3-hour layover in LAX, and is in another terminal. If by some miracle I got in early enough to make it, it lands at 2:34am. Realistically, I'm spending another night at my base and taking the first one out in Sunday morning, which leaves at 9:50am and lands at home at 12:30pm.
So as a local, this 3-day trip has me leaves the house at noon, and be back in my living room by around 7:30. 55.5 hours away from my house.
As a commuter, that same 3-day trip would have me leave my house at 4:30am, and get home at 1:30pm on day 4. That's 81 hours away, plus the cost of a hotel or crashpad.
This is kind of an edge case because 12:45 is a pretty early report for a PM trip. I've had many that report after dinner, and those would at least make the day 1 commute more palatable and give you a few more hours at home. Still, very few of our trips allow a commute at the other end of the trip. The same trip structure that makes our trips great for people that live in base makes them difficult for people that commute.
It's workable, but plan on losing 3-4 days of your life per month for the commute. If you're going by car as you're suggesting, that gives you the option of traveling the same day that an air commuter wouldn't have, but also consider whether you'll be safe for four hours on the road after working all day and landing at 1am. I know I wouldn't be.
I commuted for my first six months at Southwest. Honestly, there wasn't really any stress with it. We have a commuter policy that, in a nutshell, won't get you in trouble if you aren't able to get on your commuter flight(s).
The big issue for me was the amount of time I lost by commuting. Most of Southwest's trips either start super early in the morning (so you have to come the night before), or end late enough that there aren't any flights home by the time you get back to your base. So either way, you're staying the night away from home, on your own dime.
Here's a real world example: I fly "PM" (afternoon/evening) trips. My show time for the trip I'm on right now was 12:45pm. If I had to commute, the only flight that gets me in before 11:45am (required to protect me under our commuter policy) leaves home at 6:10am, arriving at my base at 8:40am.
Realistically, that means I would have to leave my house at 4:30am to get parked, get to the gate, check in for the jumpseat, commute, then sit around for four hours until my check-in time.
Now to the end of the trip. I get to my base at 6:50pm this evening. The last flight on us back to my former home leaves at 3:40pm. The only other option to get home leaves at 7:15, has a 3-hour layover in LAX, and is in another terminal. If by some miracle I got in early enough to make it, it lands at 2:34am. Realistically, I'm spending another night at my base and taking the first one out in Sunday morning, which leaves at 9:50am and lands at home at 12:30pm.
So as a local, this 3-day trip has me leaves the house at noon, and be back in my living room by around 7:30. 55.5 hours away from my house.
As a commuter, that same 3-day trip would have me leave my house at 4:30am, and get home at 1:30pm on day 4. That's 81 hours away, plus the cost of a hotel or crashpad.
This is kind of an edge case because 12:45 is a pretty early report for a PM trip. I've had many that report after dinner, and those would at least make the day 1 commute more palatable and give you a few more hours at home. Still, very few of our trips allow a commute at the other end of the trip. The same trip structure that makes our trips great for people that live in base makes them difficult for people that commute.
It's workable, but plan on losing 3-4 days of your life per month for the commute. If you're going by car as you're suggesting, that gives you the option of traveling the same day that an air commuter wouldn't have, but also consider whether you'll be safe for four hours on the road after working all day and landing at 1am. I know I wouldn't be.
I do PMs exclusively. I've got a 3 to 5(!) hour drive going to work, and 2:35-2:40 going home (late at night). It is exponentially better than commuting beyond driving distance on an airplane, which I did for over a decade, but it still sucks. I try to put trips together every month, typically into 2, 6 day blocks, which also sucks, but not as much as the 12+ hours of driving that I'd be doing otherwise.
After living in my town for almost 31 years, and 17 years of doing the drive, we are planning a move closer to a domicile.
Between the traffic, (mostly caused by the completely unfettered home building without adding any road volume nearly the entire way to and from work), erosion of line quality/flexibility, it's become an untenable situation. And I am pretty senior. I can't imagine trying to do what I do as a junior guy. I spend FAR too much time on ELITT and TTGA trying to trade weekdays for weekends or partial weekends to block my trips together. You'd think that would be a cakewalk, and it used to be. Apparently, folks love flying on weekends nowadays.
The traffic has gotten so bad here that I've started driving up the night before and do the hotel thing if I have a reports before 1300 (which puts me leaving during the AM rush hour). SO much less stressful than playing pole position for 3-4 hours before working a full day.
Unless we go back to our old manning levels, forget about premium time etc., unless you can snag the last minute stuff, which you can't do 3-4 hours away.
10-07-2018, 07:56 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 614
I'm OAK based... 9pm-1am seems to be the range with the bulk of PMs getting in between 10 and 11:30p. Saturday PMs are nice because they tend to get in a couple hours earlier. I've had a few get back as early as 8pm. The commuters are always racing to catch their very last flights out to SEA/PDX/GEG/BOI/SLC/ONT/LAX which all seem to push around 10-1030pm. Fortunately I don't need to worry about my car leaving without me...
10-08-2018, 09:22 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,153
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