Skywest v2.0
11-23-2017, 11:51 AM
#9361
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 324
People like you that see the regionals as only “a place to build time before moving on” are exactly the reason for stagnant pay and deteriorating QOL.
You should take more pride in what you do and expect to be compensated fairly for it. You are an aviation professional and have the same high standard of responsibility as pilots at other airlines. Please stop selling yourself, your coworkers, and peers at other airlines short. Don’t cheapen the work they do as professionals.
You should take more pride in what you do and expect to be compensated fairly for it. You are an aviation professional and have the same high standard of responsibility as pilots at other airlines. Please stop selling yourself, your coworkers, and peers at other airlines short. Don’t cheapen the work they do as professionals.
I take great pride in my job. I have 20 years left eligible to fly 121 and not sure if I'll stay here or move on. Either way, it's my business. For the ones who stay, that's their business and right too.
It's absolutely ridiculous for anyone to blame pilots for the decisions of management. BTW, I voted no on the TA too.
11-23-2017, 12:02 PM
#9362
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,173
The real danger is for regional lifers, or those not getting called. Even if they shift your flying to mainline, you might not get to go with it. Safest thing is to go now, rather than wait and hope you land on your feet. Besides you'll have better seniority. I woudn't bet on another 20 years of status quo, not happening.
Even voluntary paycuts, to get senior lifer costs more in life with regional norms would not save you... once the big three start hiring CFI's, game over.
11-23-2017, 12:16 PM
#9363
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 443
Unfortunately... it's not a "new mentality". It's a new *opportunity*, driven by two factors...
The lesser factor is fewer young people who are interested in aviation, interested in travel, and able/willing to pass drug tests. Why jump through all those hoops when you can kick back, blaze up, and live your life through your phone.
The larger factor is literally unprecedented demand.
Some of the noobs like to shoot off at the mouth about how they're not putting up with things like past generations... but if regional pay suddenly dropped by 50% how many would actually walk away?
It's important to get all the bonuses and carrots baked into pay scales and contracts to ensure they don't "snap back" at the next (inevitable) industry hiccup.
But I'm certainly glad to see things improving, don't know all the deets of the endeavor TA but it sounds like a major turning point. May have finally put SKW at a competitive disadvantage. Or maybe not... you'd have to pay me about $300K MORE to get me to live east of the rockies, $20K-30K, while a significant percentage of regional FO pay, will not get everyone to move east.
The lesser factor is fewer young people who are interested in aviation, interested in travel, and able/willing to pass drug tests. Why jump through all those hoops when you can kick back, blaze up, and live your life through your phone.
The larger factor is literally unprecedented demand.
Some of the noobs like to shoot off at the mouth about how they're not putting up with things like past generations... but if regional pay suddenly dropped by 50% how many would actually walk away?
It's important to get all the bonuses and carrots baked into pay scales and contracts to ensure they don't "snap back" at the next (inevitable) industry hiccup.
But I'm certainly glad to see things improving, don't know all the deets of the endeavor TA but it sounds like a major turning point. May have finally put SKW at a competitive disadvantage. Or maybe not... you'd have to pay me about $300K MORE to get me to live east of the rockies, $20K-30K, while a significant percentage of regional FO pay, will not get everyone to move east.
I would argue that today’s generation is far more likely to walk away when the pay and QOL doesn’t meet their needs/wants. And that is backed up by research that indicates that today’s generation is more likely to have 2-4 career (career not job) changes in their life. Very different than what we are used to, and the aviation industry better be ready for that when they are already short.
As far as geographical advantages/disadvantages of various airlines..
Right now it seems that Skywest is trying to take over the world. With the pay that Endeavor is offering, good luck staffing common bases in the future..
11-23-2017, 01:27 PM
#9365
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Downward Dog
Posts: 1,875
Yet ASA is in the middle of the Delta adios.
The landscape will continue to change.
The landscape will continue to change.
11-23-2017, 02:33 PM
#9366
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 324
My time at Skywest has nothing to do with the shutdown of Comair. I don't need to do "research" on it. I was following it as it happened.
11-23-2017, 03:19 PM
#9367
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,648
Well good for you. Now put your business degree to work and compare the difference between then and now. You seem only focused on one similarity and that is that Endeavor is a Delta wholly owned like Comair was. Using your logic an American wholly owned is possibly doomed as well. When Comair was dismantled there were more regionals, more regional pilots, and hardly any movement from regional airlines to the majors. This is a totally different environment today
11-23-2017, 04:43 PM
#9368
Ich bin Pilot von Beruf
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: CRJ Kapitän
Posts: 615
Some of it might go away. Some of it might shift to mainline.
The real danger is for regional lifers, or those not getting called. Even if they shift your flying to mainline, you might not get to go with it. Safest thing is to go now, rather than wait and hope you land on your feet. Besides you'll have better seniority. I woudn't bet on another 20 years of status quo, not happening.
Even voluntary paycuts, to get senior lifer costs more in life with regional norms would not save you... once the big three start hiring CFI's, game over.
The real danger is for regional lifers, or those not getting called. Even if they shift your flying to mainline, you might not get to go with it. Safest thing is to go now, rather than wait and hope you land on your feet. Besides you'll have better seniority. I woudn't bet on another 20 years of status quo, not happening.
Even voluntary paycuts, to get senior lifer costs more in life with regional norms would not save you... once the big three start hiring CFI's, game over.
11-23-2017, 04:59 PM
#9369
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,173
Not exactly. If things stay on the current trajectory (which is to say majors paying lip service to the future problem), then eventually majors will have to hire 1500 hour pilots.
In their current mode, they seem to select for two obvious categories...
a) Whole Person: These requirements are fairly static: background, degree, GPA, psych/cog test, leadership, volunteer, recent training, affirmative action, trainable(ie young), personality.
b) Flight Experience: The bar has dropped over the years.
Apparently the trajectory is to lower b) as needed to get candidates who have what they want in a).
For example they are consistently hiring low-time regional FO's who score well in a). Notably, they are passing over experienced regional captains who don't have recent training, or accumulated a background/training hiccup over the decades.
Extrapolate this trend... at some point they'll hire regional FO's with 500, then 200 hours TSIC.
Eventually they'll be faced with hiring CFI's with good a) scores, or regional lifers with good b) scores... what will they do then?
I suspect they'll hire CFI's, but with some kind of training prep program. Jetblue obviously prefers neophytes to RJ CA's. This has a HUUUUGE advantage... majors can DIRECTLY incentivize people they want to enter the profession IMMEDIATELY if they know they don't have to degrade themselves by flying a crappy RJ for under six figures. Especially appealing to any demographic who wants it all right now, without having to pay dues.
At some point they'll probably lower the whole person requirements as well, but how low? Will they lower them enough to get to YOUR level?
Last edited by rickair7777; 11-23-2017 at 05:09 PM.
11-23-2017, 05:18 PM
#9370
Ich bin Pilot von Beruf
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: CRJ Kapitän
Posts: 615
Not exactly. If things stay on the current trajectory (which is to say majors paying lip service to the future problem), then eventually majors will have to hire 1500 hour pilots.
In their current mode, they seem to select for two obvious categories...
a) Whole Person: These requirements are fairly static: background, degree, GPA, psych/cog test, leadership, volunteer, recent training, affirmative action, trainable(ie young), personality.
b) Flight Experience: The bar has dropped over the years.
Apparently the trajectory is to lower b) as needed to get candidates who have what they want in a).
For example they are consistently hiring low-time regional FO's who score well in a). Notably, they are passing over experienced regional captains who don't have recent training, or accumulated a background/training hiccup over the decades.
Extrapolate this trend... at some point they'll hire regional FO's with 500, then 200 hours TSIC.
Eventually they'll be faced with hiring CFI's with good a) scores, or regional lifers with good b) scores... what will they do then?
I suspect they'll hire CFI's, but with some kind of training prep program. Jetblue obviously prefers neophytes to RJ CA's. This has a HUUUUGE advantage... majors can DIRECTLY incentivize people they want to enter the profession IMMEDIATELY if they know they don't have to degrade themselves by flying a crappy RJ for under six figures. Especially appealing to any demographic who wants it all right now, without having to pay dues.
At some point they'll probably lower the whole person requirements as well, but how low? Will they lower them enough to get to YOUR level?
In their current mode, they seem to select for two obvious categories...
a) Whole Person: These requirements are fairly static: background, degree, GPA, psych/cog test, leadership, volunteer, recent training, affirmative action, trainable(ie young), personality.
b) Flight Experience: The bar has dropped over the years.
Apparently the trajectory is to lower b) as needed to get candidates who have what they want in a).
For example they are consistently hiring low-time regional FO's who score well in a). Notably, they are passing over experienced regional captains who don't have recent training, or accumulated a background/training hiccup over the decades.
Extrapolate this trend... at some point they'll hire regional FO's with 500, then 200 hours TSIC.
Eventually they'll be faced with hiring CFI's with good a) scores, or regional lifers with good b) scores... what will they do then?
I suspect they'll hire CFI's, but with some kind of training prep program. Jetblue obviously prefers neophytes to RJ CA's. This has a HUUUUGE advantage... majors can DIRECTLY incentivize people they want to enter the profession IMMEDIATELY if they know they don't have to degrade themselves by flying a crappy RJ for under six figures. Especially appealing to any demographic who wants it all right now, without having to pay dues.
At some point they'll probably lower the whole person requirements as well, but how low? Will they lower them enough to get to YOUR level?
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