Skywest v2.0
05-23-2016, 01:37 PM
#1301
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: RJ Captain
Posts: 1,181
Cool that they are putting together reporting with the info from the exit interviews. Where do we go to see that report? I'm sure it's information that will be distributed to the line pilots and I just can't find it on that awful website we have.
Now I know that I am not normally one to spread sunshine, but let's make sure we are looking at the whole picture here.
Pay raise - 1.5% over 18 months. Nice I guess, but doesn't even keep up with the COLA that we gave up when we gave the Bro pilots their big raise. Another 1.5% in January 2017
Pilot Bonus - Again nice to have. I think I figured this to be close to 3% so that would help offset the loss of COLA. But if you leave before it's paid out then you get nothing. Kinda bum deal for those that get to move on but I am sure it won't keep them up at night when they are in training at Delta or United.
Increased retirement - 1% At this rate, we will only need 9 more pay package votes get closer to Delta's retirement. Also not close to our sister company with their 2-6% DC on top of their 401k
Better work rules - I was kinda lost on this one? We should've got way more QOL stuff IMO but you must be talking about the 1:4 TAFB change? The one that CW ran numbers on before the vote and showed that there would be minimal improvement with our MSP lines? So the company needed to be more efficient with our lower staffing and they convinced us that this was a win for us? We should've asked for a 1:2 pay ratio for any sit in a SW domicile over 2 hours. You want to schedule a 4 hour sit in SEA? Okay I'll take the extra 2 hours pay. That would've forced more efficient schedules instead of the TAFB ratio. Were there other huge work rules that I missed? One extra day guaranteed off? Sorry I don't think anyone should be working 19 days a month unless they want to. And all this did was just make my bid harder to solve because it has one less day to work with.
Increased MDG - 12 minutes. Again not life shattering and I haven't seen much schedule improvement because of it. I would have rather kept the 4 hours with a rule that PBS must solve my bid at 83 hours minimum each month and any extra flying forced above that is time and a half. That would be improved work rules.
But your last line really takes the cake and in my opinion is exactly we got with the new pay package. While it is great that reserves only have to spend a month or so on reserve. Being so busy that we can't get any time off is not a value add for the pilots. And on top of that, if we have to call in for any reason (you know like sick kids, sick self, exhaustion) then we get to be threatened and told what a horrible employee we are. Great that we are adding a bunch of pilots, but it is too little too late. We will never be able to get ahead of the massive attrition we will see and with all the new flying we are taking on.
Now I know that I am not normally one to spread sunshine, but let's make sure we are looking at the whole picture here.
Pay raise - 1.5% over 18 months. Nice I guess, but doesn't even keep up with the COLA that we gave up when we gave the Bro pilots their big raise. Another 1.5% in January 2017
Pilot Bonus - Again nice to have. I think I figured this to be close to 3% so that would help offset the loss of COLA. But if you leave before it's paid out then you get nothing. Kinda bum deal for those that get to move on but I am sure it won't keep them up at night when they are in training at Delta or United.
Increased retirement - 1% At this rate, we will only need 9 more pay package votes get closer to Delta's retirement. Also not close to our sister company with their 2-6% DC on top of their 401k
Better work rules - I was kinda lost on this one? We should've got way more QOL stuff IMO but you must be talking about the 1:4 TAFB change? The one that CW ran numbers on before the vote and showed that there would be minimal improvement with our MSP lines? So the company needed to be more efficient with our lower staffing and they convinced us that this was a win for us? We should've asked for a 1:2 pay ratio for any sit in a SW domicile over 2 hours. You want to schedule a 4 hour sit in SEA? Okay I'll take the extra 2 hours pay. That would've forced more efficient schedules instead of the TAFB ratio. Were there other huge work rules that I missed? One extra day guaranteed off? Sorry I don't think anyone should be working 19 days a month unless they want to. And all this did was just make my bid harder to solve because it has one less day to work with.
Increased MDG - 12 minutes. Again not life shattering and I haven't seen much schedule improvement because of it. I would have rather kept the 4 hours with a rule that PBS must solve my bid at 83 hours minimum each month and any extra flying forced above that is time and a half. That would be improved work rules.
But your last line really takes the cake and in my opinion is exactly we got with the new pay package. While it is great that reserves only have to spend a month or so on reserve. Being so busy that we can't get any time off is not a value add for the pilots. And on top of that, if we have to call in for any reason (you know like sick kids, sick self, exhaustion) then we get to be threatened and told what a horrible employee we are. Great that we are adding a bunch of pilots, but it is too little too late. We will never be able to get ahead of the massive attrition we will see and with all the new flying we are taking on.
It wasn't all that great of a deal. The sad part is it's the best one since 2000. 
What regional airline isn't suffering a shortage of pilots? Where is staffing good enough that you only have to work 75 hours a month and can get time off whenever you want. And you what, if everyone only got 75 hours you'd have pilots complaining they weren't getting 90. This is the new norm, in fact I'd only expect it to get worse in the coming years.
My response was really to Ellen complaining as to why we won't unionize and comparing us to a (unionized)pilot group that took concessions in order to get growth.
And if you don't want to work all that much bid ORD 175 FO.
05-23-2016, 03:40 PM
#1302
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: CRJ
Posts: 55
The fact that a few of the 325 may have a lot of other experience does not make my math "way off lol". I think you would agree that the majority of those 325 don't have a lot of jet experience.
SW is back to less than 3 year upgrades. SW has a bunch of planes coming quickly. It will not be long before we are down to the 2 year upgrade. As that happens we get into quantum effects if you will, with a much higher % of FOs not feeling ready to upgrade or not having the 1000 hours (Jet or SW?).
As all these things happen the company will have to make adjustments to continue to get pilots quickly enough. Higher pay will come and SW will compete more in the pay area than it has because it will have to. The other airlines can't grow because of lack of pilots but SW can and will if it can get the new hires to come to SW.
If SW has a 1000 jet time requirement it could easily end up with a street captain situation, as could all airlines. I don't know why so many regional pilots see huge increases in pay rates as something that won't happen. The Chinese airlines have just increased their contract rates to 287,000 for a captain, a big increase. The regionals can get more pilots, a lot more, if they increase the pay rates a lot. The guys with experience who are out there, and I know many, don't consider 36 an hour as a serious pay scale. Even if hired as a captain they don's consider 64 a flight hour as enough either. There should be no regional captain making less than about 110 an hour if you want to set the rate at what the market demands. I am probably on the low side of this. The pilots who are out there and not willing to work have 10000 to 25000 hours. If you pay them they will come. IMHO.
05-23-2016, 04:27 PM
#1303
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: RJ Captain
Posts: 1,181
SkyWest use to require, and may still - I haven't looked in years, 2500tt with a 1000 multi turbine in a crew environment. And the crew environment didn't have to be 121. I think the new ATP regs added a requirement as well.
Upgrade has been awarded to those in new hire class before. IAH with the Brasilia back around 2005?
As far as now. Just looking a the DTW bids it'll be at or under 2 1/2 years.
Upgrade has been awarded to those in new hire class before. IAH with the Brasilia back around 2005?
As far as now. Just looking a the DTW bids it'll be at or under 2 1/2 years.
05-23-2016, 04:32 PM
#1304
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 312
So it sounds like the answer to my question is that SW requires 1000 hours of SW or jet time?
The fact that a few of the 325 may have a lot of other experience does not make my math "way off lol". I think you would agree that the majority of those 325 don't have a lot of jet experience.
SW is back to less than 3 year upgrades. SW has a bunch of planes coming quickly. It will not be long before we are down to the 2 year upgrade. As that happens we get into quantum effects if you will, with a much higher % of FOs not feeling ready to upgrade or not having the 1000 hours (Jet or SW?).
As all these things happen the company will have to make adjustments to continue to get pilots quickly enough. Higher pay will come and SW will compete more in the pay area than it has because it will have to. The other airlines can't grow because of lack of pilots but SW can and will if it can get the new hires to come to SW.
If SW has a 1000 jet time requirement it could easily end up with a street captain situation, as could all airlines. I don't know why so many regional pilots see huge increases in pay rates as something that won't happen. The Chinese airlines have just increased their contract rates to 287,000 for a captain, a big increase. The regionals can get more pilots, a lot more, if they increase the pay rates a lot. The guys with experience who are out there, and I know many, don't consider 36 an hour as a serious pay scale. Even if hired as a captain they don's consider 64 a flight hour as enough either. There should be no regional captain making less than about 110 an hour if you want to set the rate at what the market demands. I am probably on the low side of this. The pilots who are out there and not willing to work have 10000 to 25000 hours. If you pay them they will come. IMHO.
The fact that a few of the 325 may have a lot of other experience does not make my math "way off lol". I think you would agree that the majority of those 325 don't have a lot of jet experience.
SW is back to less than 3 year upgrades. SW has a bunch of planes coming quickly. It will not be long before we are down to the 2 year upgrade. As that happens we get into quantum effects if you will, with a much higher % of FOs not feeling ready to upgrade or not having the 1000 hours (Jet or SW?).
As all these things happen the company will have to make adjustments to continue to get pilots quickly enough. Higher pay will come and SW will compete more in the pay area than it has because it will have to. The other airlines can't grow because of lack of pilots but SW can and will if it can get the new hires to come to SW.
If SW has a 1000 jet time requirement it could easily end up with a street captain situation, as could all airlines. I don't know why so many regional pilots see huge increases in pay rates as something that won't happen. The Chinese airlines have just increased their contract rates to 287,000 for a captain, a big increase. The regionals can get more pilots, a lot more, if they increase the pay rates a lot. The guys with experience who are out there, and I know many, don't consider 36 an hour as a serious pay scale. Even if hired as a captain they don's consider 64 a flight hour as enough either. There should be no regional captain making less than about 110 an hour if you want to set the rate at what the market demands. I am probably on the low side of this. The pilots who are out there and not willing to work have 10000 to 25000 hours. If you pay them they will come. IMHO.
(3) If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part,
Definitely has nothing to do with jet time or the Bro guys would have never upgraded. I don't see a scenario where SW starts hiring street captains anytime soon.
05-23-2016, 04:54 PM
#1305
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,604
So it sounds like the answer to my question is that SW requires 1000 hours of SW or jet time?
The fact that a few of the 325 may have a lot of other experience does not make my math "way off lol". I think you would agree that the majority of those 325 don't have a lot of jet experience.
SW is back to less than 3 year upgrades. SW has a bunch of planes coming quickly. It will not be long before we are down to the 2 year upgrade. As that happens we get into quantum effects if you will, with a much higher % of FOs not feeling ready to upgrade or not having the 1000 hours (Jet or SW?).
As all these things happen the company will have to make adjustments to continue to get pilots quickly enough. Higher pay will come and SW will compete more in the pay area than it has because it will have to. The other airlines can't grow because of lack of pilots but SW can and will if it can get the new hires to come to SW.
If SW has a 1000 jet time requirement it could easily end up with a street captain situation, as could all airlines. I don't know why so many regional pilots see huge increases in pay rates as something that won't happen. The Chinese airlines have just increased their contract rates to 287,000 for a captain, a big increase. The regionals can get more pilots, a lot more, if they increase the pay rates a lot. The guys with experience who are out there, and I know many, don't consider 36 an hour as a serious pay scale. Even if hired as a captain they don's consider 64 a flight hour as enough either. There should be no regional captain making less than about 110 an hour if you want to set the rate at what the market demands. I am probably on the low side of this. The pilots who are out there and not willing to work have 10000 to 25000 hours. If you pay them they will come. IMHO.
The fact that a few of the 325 may have a lot of other experience does not make my math "way off lol". I think you would agree that the majority of those 325 don't have a lot of jet experience.
SW is back to less than 3 year upgrades. SW has a bunch of planes coming quickly. It will not be long before we are down to the 2 year upgrade. As that happens we get into quantum effects if you will, with a much higher % of FOs not feeling ready to upgrade or not having the 1000 hours (Jet or SW?).
As all these things happen the company will have to make adjustments to continue to get pilots quickly enough. Higher pay will come and SW will compete more in the pay area than it has because it will have to. The other airlines can't grow because of lack of pilots but SW can and will if it can get the new hires to come to SW.
If SW has a 1000 jet time requirement it could easily end up with a street captain situation, as could all airlines. I don't know why so many regional pilots see huge increases in pay rates as something that won't happen. The Chinese airlines have just increased their contract rates to 287,000 for a captain, a big increase. The regionals can get more pilots, a lot more, if they increase the pay rates a lot. The guys with experience who are out there, and I know many, don't consider 36 an hour as a serious pay scale. Even if hired as a captain they don's consider 64 a flight hour as enough either. There should be no regional captain making less than about 110 an hour if you want to set the rate at what the market demands. I am probably on the low side of this. The pilots who are out there and not willing to work have 10000 to 25000 hours. If you pay them they will come. IMHO.
You may also want to familiarize yourself with part 121 regarding what it take to act as PIC. Just sayin'.
Last edited by word302; 05-23-2016 at 05:11 PM.
05-23-2016, 05:30 PM
#1306
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,238
I think you may have skipped statistics in high school. While the upgrade might get close to 2 years for a short time, anything less than that is nearly numerically impossible. Our training department could handle maybe 50 upgrades a month maximum. Do the math man. At 4000 pilots, even if half the FOs defer upgrade, you're looking at nearly 2 years. I guarantee much less than half will defer.
You may also want to familiarize yourself with part 121 regarding what it take to act as PIC. Just sayin'.
You may also want to familiarize yourself with part 121 regarding what it take to act as PIC. Just sayin'.
Well they are doing 40 CRJ and 30 ERJ a month....
05-23-2016, 05:52 PM
#1308
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Position: CRJ
Posts: 55
I don't remember statistics in high school but I did take it in college and grad school and happen to have the book "Applications of probability and Random Variables", 1974 edition, sitting on the table next to me, but I certainly don't consider myself an expert at it. I have looked at the numbers of people bypassing upgrades which is pretty high for many reasons including not wanting to commute, not wanting to be at the bottom, not feeling ready. And, if there is a 1000 part 121 requirement for upgrade, then the upgrade time will go way down and that decrease will accelerate rapidly when it enters the realm of pilots who have been here less than 2 years and do not have the 1000 hours needed.
I think that many of you will be surprised at how low it goes, even at Skywest. I think that even I will be surprise. I'm just trying to look at things and make projections.
I think that many of you will be surprised at how low it goes, even at Skywest. I think that even I will be surprise. I'm just trying to look at things and make projections.
05-23-2016, 06:44 PM
#1309
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
Originally Posted by MrSkywest
And, if there is a 1000 part 121 requirement for upgrade,
"If"? Wow.
05-23-2016, 07:05 PM
#1310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,238
Wasn't that long ago they walked i to newhire classes and asked if any one wanted a E120 Captain spot... We're not there (planes gone) but that was in the 60 new CRJ's coming days. Look at whats going on now.. 50 New E175's coming.. And attrition is way up compaired to those days... I see it at 2 years by summer. Maybe even dip under 2 late summer. Not cool aid'ing this go were you live. East coast PSA/Air Willy ect..
Last edited by amcnd; 05-23-2016 at 07:26 PM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
