SkyWest Inc. Leadership Change
05-12-2014, 07:39 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Another RJ FO
Posts: 1,272
You constantly post that management pits the employee groups against each other and that XJT and Skywest pilots hate each other. I don't know what you guys talk about over in the XJT cockpits but I've never heard a Skywest pilot say that they hate XJT pilots. I'm pretty sure regardless of the profitability of the company most people realize that you guys get paid the same as we get paid and aren't the problem nor should you take paycuts.
It's true that management wants to keep us separate, but I think it's garbage when you talk about the pilot groups hating each other.
It's true that management wants to keep us separate, but I think it's garbage when you talk about the pilot groups hating each other.
05-12-2014, 09:54 PM
#22
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slats
Nevets, spews the same garbage over and over... Take what he says regarding SkyWest/ Expressjet with a hefty grain of salt
As can be said of you and your cohorts on this forum. You're on one side, he's on the other. You guys should work TOGETHER, not against each other.
Intra company whipsaw is very common among divisions of the parent company. In the 90's, American Eagle consisted of four separate divisions, all owned by AMR. Whenever a contract would come up at one carrier, the threats, downsizing, furloughs, etc., would begin. Meanwhile, AMR would move another division's planes and pilots (sometimes the furloughed pilots as "new hires" at the growing division and "transferred" airplanes from the original division) into the hubs of the division in contract talks. So, furloughs at one, growth at the other. Wash, rinse, repeat. It happened over and over, and AMR used "whipsaw" to great effect.
Finally, the union that represented two of the four carriers (APA)(yes, AA's pilot union), petitioned the NMB to recognize the carriers as one single transportation unit, for labor purposes, since in reality, they were. All the employees were hired and trained at AMR HQ in Dallas (usually in classes with employees of each division together), the airplanes and facilities were bought and directly controlled by AMR EAGLE, and distributed out to the divisions as needed, the manuals and procedures were all identical, literally, with only different division names stenciled onto the manuals, along with the different management names, as required for each "certificate holder" (Wings West, Simmons, Flagship, and Executive).
It was a total sham and existed solely to leverage employee groups against one another during contract negotiations. AMR perfected whipsaw as it related to the employees of each of the four divisions of "American Eagle".
The NMB finally ruled they were all one transpiration group, which led to only ONE union representing the pilots, and which eventually led to ONE contract encompassing all four carriers, which effectively neutered the ability of AMR EAGLE to leverage one group against another - the whipsaw. This eventually led AMR to merge the carriers into one, and officially call it American Eagle Airlines.
I only illustrate this to show that two airlines run by one company - with separate work groups - can easily be used to "whipsaw" each other. It's been done already - to great effect - at AMR (now AAG, of course).
Originally Posted by Slats
Nevets, spews the same garbage over and over... Take what he says regarding SkyWest/ Expressjet with a hefty grain of salt
As can be said of you and your cohorts on this forum. You're on one side, he's on the other. You guys should work TOGETHER, not against each other.
Intra company whipsaw is very common among divisions of the parent company. In the 90's, American Eagle consisted of four separate divisions, all owned by AMR. Whenever a contract would come up at one carrier, the threats, downsizing, furloughs, etc., would begin. Meanwhile, AMR would move another division's planes and pilots (sometimes the furloughed pilots as "new hires" at the growing division and "transferred" airplanes from the original division) into the hubs of the division in contract talks. So, furloughs at one, growth at the other. Wash, rinse, repeat. It happened over and over, and AMR used "whipsaw" to great effect.
Finally, the union that represented two of the four carriers (APA)(yes, AA's pilot union), petitioned the NMB to recognize the carriers as one single transportation unit, for labor purposes, since in reality, they were. All the employees were hired and trained at AMR HQ in Dallas (usually in classes with employees of each division together), the airplanes and facilities were bought and directly controlled by AMR EAGLE, and distributed out to the divisions as needed, the manuals and procedures were all identical, literally, with only different division names stenciled onto the manuals, along with the different management names, as required for each "certificate holder" (Wings West, Simmons, Flagship, and Executive).
It was a total sham and existed solely to leverage employee groups against one another during contract negotiations. AMR perfected whipsaw as it related to the employees of each of the four divisions of "American Eagle".
The NMB finally ruled they were all one transpiration group, which led to only ONE union representing the pilots, and which eventually led to ONE contract encompassing all four carriers, which effectively neutered the ability of AMR EAGLE to leverage one group against another - the whipsaw. This eventually led AMR to merge the carriers into one, and officially call it American Eagle Airlines.
I only illustrate this to show that two airlines run by one company - with separate work groups - can easily be used to "whipsaw" each other. It's been done already - to great effect - at AMR (now AAG, of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
So what did I say there that was garbage?
You constantly post that management pits the employee groups against each other and that XJT and Skywest pilots hate each other. I don't know what you guys talk about over in the XJT cockpits but I've never heard a Skywest pilot say that they hate XJT pilots. I'm pretty sure regardless of the profitability of the company most people realize that you guys get paid the same as we get paid and aren't the problem nor should you take paycuts.
It's true that management wants to keep us separate, but I think it's garbage when you talk about the pilot groups hating each other.
Originally Posted by Nevets
So what did I say there that was garbage?
You constantly post that management pits the employee groups against each other and that XJT and Skywest pilots hate each other. I don't know what you guys talk about over in the XJT cockpits but I've never heard a Skywest pilot say that they hate XJT pilots. I'm pretty sure regardless of the profitability of the company most people realize that you guys get paid the same as we get paid and aren't the problem nor should you take paycuts.
It's true that management wants to keep us separate, but I think it's garbage when you talk about the pilot groups hating each other.
You guys are becoming the biggest pariahs more and more with each passing day. It's not true that management wants to keep us separate. It's true that management AND Skywest pilots want to keep us separate. Otherwise you would vote SAPA in as your NMB recognized bargaining agent and actually worked TOGETHER with the ASA/XJT MECs by being there in our negotiations with our management and backing us up instead of getting me too clauses and riding our coat tails on those negotiations.
05-13-2014, 12:54 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 139
This whipsaw also happened with Republic/Chitaqua/Shuttle America, Mesa/Freedom, TSA/Gojet, SKW/XJT and again with Envoy/PSA/PDT. But some of these guys don't understand it or don't care. Ignorance is not an excuse after you've been here for a year.
I constantly post it to remind some people of what is really happening. We do NOT get compensated equally. Inc kept throwing your book at our negotiators as pressure to get us to take pay cuts! Even after the TA they offered ALL of your pay and work rules instead! If it wouldn't been a HUGE concession, they wouldn't have offered it! This is what you guys don't want to admit. You are being used by our CEO against each other! And this is precisely why you see me post it here. So that maybe one day you will realize the truth.
You guys are becoming the biggest pariahs more and more with each passing day. It's not true that management wants to keep us separate. It's true that management AND Skywest pilots want to keep us separate. Otherwise you would vote SAPA in as your NMB recognized bargaining agent and actually worked TOGETHER with the ASA/XJT MECs by being there in our negotiations with our management and backing us up instead of getting me too clauses and riding our coat tails on those negotiations.
I constantly post it to remind some people of what is really happening. We do NOT get compensated equally. Inc kept throwing your book at our negotiators as pressure to get us to take pay cuts! Even after the TA they offered ALL of your pay and work rules instead! If it wouldn't been a HUGE concession, they wouldn't have offered it! This is what you guys don't want to admit. You are being used by our CEO against each other! And this is precisely why you see me post it here. So that maybe one day you will realize the truth.
You guys are becoming the biggest pariahs more and more with each passing day. It's not true that management wants to keep us separate. It's true that management AND Skywest pilots want to keep us separate. Otherwise you would vote SAPA in as your NMB recognized bargaining agent and actually worked TOGETHER with the ASA/XJT MECs by being there in our negotiations with our management and backing us up instead of getting me too clauses and riding our coat tails on those negotiations.
05-13-2014, 06:30 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
IMHO, Chip is a bright numbers and logistics guy, but he isn't great at rallying the troops. The first email we received from the new COO has more charisma and personality than any email we received from Chip in the last 5 years. Like Brad Rich, Chip won't need to kiss babies and shake hands anymore, he will interact with other rich, white people. His skills will be better utilized as a strategist and liaison to the BOD than an email pusher to a work force who tends to think they should have honorary MBAs and could run the company.
There may be some truth to the XJT dooms day theories, but if SKW is actively looking for 50 seat contracts, why not do the same with XJT? The market share SKW Inc controls in the regional industry is pretty astounding; I don't see why they'd want to give any of it away if they didn't have to. The company is about long term viability, not short term profit margins. I've always thought the XJT operation is a valuable piece of SKW Inc's chessboard. While other outfits struggle to staff and complete flights, maintaining your operation, albeit with intermittent losses (subsidized by a lot of cash in the bank) suddenly doesn't seem as pathetic as a lot of people paint it to be.
I don't fully understand the ins and outs, but I have my doubts that there is any grand plan to phase out XJT. I guess only time will tell
There may be some truth to the XJT dooms day theories, but if SKW is actively looking for 50 seat contracts, why not do the same with XJT? The market share SKW Inc controls in the regional industry is pretty astounding; I don't see why they'd want to give any of it away if they didn't have to. The company is about long term viability, not short term profit margins. I've always thought the XJT operation is a valuable piece of SKW Inc's chessboard. While other outfits struggle to staff and complete flights, maintaining your operation, albeit with intermittent losses (subsidized by a lot of cash in the bank) suddenly doesn't seem as pathetic as a lot of people paint it to be.
I don't fully understand the ins and outs, but I have my doubts that there is any grand plan to phase out XJT. I guess only time will tell
05-13-2014, 08:18 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 484
IMHO, Chip is a bright numbers and logistics guy, but he isn't great at rallying the troops. The first email we received from the new COO has more charisma and personality than any email we received from Chip in the last 5 years. Like Brad Rich, Chip won't need to kiss babies and shake hands anymore, he will interact with other rich, white people. His skills will be better utilized as a strategist and liaison to the BOD than an email pusher to a work force who tends to think they should have honorary MBAs and could run the company.
There may be some truth to the XJT dooms day theories, but if SKW is actively looking for 50 seat contracts, why not do the same with XJT? The market share SKW Inc controls in the regional industry is pretty astounding; I don't see why they'd want to give any of it away if they didn't have to. The company is about long term viability, not short term profit margins. I've always thought the XJT operation is a valuable piece of SKW Inc's chessboard. While other outfits struggle to staff and complete flights, maintaining your operation, albeit with intermittent losses (subsidized by a lot of cash in the bank) suddenly doesn't seem as pathetic as a lot of people paint it to be.
I don't fully understand the ins and outs, but I have my doubts that there is any grand plan to phase out XJT. I guess only time will tell
There may be some truth to the XJT dooms day theories, but if SKW is actively looking for 50 seat contracts, why not do the same with XJT? The market share SKW Inc controls in the regional industry is pretty astounding; I don't see why they'd want to give any of it away if they didn't have to. The company is about long term viability, not short term profit margins. I've always thought the XJT operation is a valuable piece of SKW Inc's chessboard. While other outfits struggle to staff and complete flights, maintaining your operation, albeit with intermittent losses (subsidized by a lot of cash in the bank) suddenly doesn't seem as pathetic as a lot of people paint it to be.
I don't fully understand the ins and outs, but I have my doubts that there is any grand plan to phase out XJT. I guess only time will tell
05-13-2014, 08:41 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 611
Right, and since United can't afford to lose feed right now, they will either pony up for SkyWest, Inc. to continue operating these aircraft or they will need to find themselves a cheaper 135/140 operator. In either of those two scenarios, I don't see these aircraft remaining where they currently reside. That's the bad news.
05-13-2014, 08:51 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 199
In 2009 XJT loss only $3.3 million for the year and that was while we were still paying for unused gates and equipment due to the closing of branded, operationally we started making money again. Then in 2010 along comes Inc once again to try and buy XJT and merges us with ASA. Four years later we are losing more money than ever and being asked to (once again) take pay cuts. Our operation is a joke compared to the pre merger days where CCF of 99.9% was the norm. So what is the difference between 2009 and 2014?
Our NC at ASA and XJT offered SKW more concessions than they wanted for one list with SKW but Inc said no so I can only assume Inc is not serious with their request for concessions (since they turned down almost $30 million a year for current SKW book) so our financial issues are due to lack of revenue and operational performance and not pilot costs. Inc failed to meet us half way and now they are stuck with at least 6 more years of LXJT CPA flying for United that goes down to about 130 a/c in 2017 unless they can re fleet XJT. United is not going to let Inc just cancel the entire CPA because it is so cheap (for UAL). If Inc is so desperate for concessions from XJT why don't they meet us half way instead of putting out JCBA that failed miserably?
Our NC at ASA and XJT offered SKW more concessions than they wanted for one list with SKW but Inc said no so I can only assume Inc is not serious with their request for concessions (since they turned down almost $30 million a year for current SKW book) so our financial issues are due to lack of revenue and operational performance and not pilot costs. Inc failed to meet us half way and now they are stuck with at least 6 more years of LXJT CPA flying for United that goes down to about 130 a/c in 2017 unless they can re fleet XJT. United is not going to let Inc just cancel the entire CPA because it is so cheap (for UAL). If Inc is so desperate for concessions from XJT why don't they meet us half way instead of putting out JCBA that failed miserably?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
