duvie

Voting for higher pay, which directly translates to higher costs as a subcontractor, only works if you can directly bring your competitors wages up as well. That is the entire premise of a union: "a union wage." As long as the various unions act in a disconnected way, and anybody who is willing to pay 2% of their paycheck can be certified as an alpa carrier, ALPA does not act like or provide any real benefits aside from perhaps legal and medical Council. The real point of the Union is to establish a baseline rate, below which if you operate at you cannot be a union member and therefore are doing union work as a scab. To see various airlines take large concessions and slit the throats of their fellow union members, is totally and entirely contradictory to the very idea of unionizing.

The name of the game in this country is capitalism and it is based on the premise that if the same work can be done for less, you hire that person. In the regional airline world of subcontracting and contracts that are unique to every different airline, for both the pilots and the contracts with mainline partners, the union model only makes sense if there is solidarity between pilot groups.

What ever the best intentions of any given pilot group are, the de facto result is good old-fashioned cutthroat capitalism, and the most heavily unionized (regional) airlines become the least flexible and eventually fade out of relevance. Comair, AWAC, eagle, horizon, etc. You don't have to like this message, but it is just the true state of the regional industry. Until there is any kind of inter-airline unity, there is no such thing as raising the bar. The nail that sticks out gets hammered, therefore all these discussions are just abstract ideas about what a regional union could be, because in practice it is nothing like that.

Without a "minimum union wage" ALPA is about as relevant as SAPA.

* DISCLAIMER: this does not apply to mainline for obvious reasons

rickair7777

Tone it down, you're walking a thin line on flame bait.

Yes.

A union at SKW might help us stabilize some policy issues and maybe get enough of a raise to cover the dues. It will not help to improve the profession...no regional union can do that because the problem is the way the game is rigged. The only way to "fix" the regionals is one of these:

1) All the regional pilots unite under one banner and collectively squeeze regional management. But the problem here is that the regionals are caught in the middle and mainline management would just refuse to pay up and then shift flying in house. I personally think that would be a good thing but there's a lot of regional lifers who don't.

2) All of the legacies bring their regional pilots onto their list.

I for one got into this game before 9/11 and expected to fly small turboprops for a few years and then move on. I didn't set out to "disrespect" or devalue the profession. I just followed the conventional career path wisdom and look where it got me. Why don't the legacy pilots try to force their regionals onto their list? That's where they should have been all along, at least since the day the first RJ rolled off the line.


Of course.

Snarge

I agree with this... on a side note, you disrespect the profession by not joining it... two ALPA drives... and other union drives too... while you may have voted yes yourself, you are tied to your collective choice.

I chide my fellow pilots for relaxing scoping... hating the regional pilots after they created them... ?? Legacy pilots need to go thru the painful recovery of fixing the mistakes they made... and with most regionals being ALPA it will be easier to broker a deal....

I even propose that regional airlines dissolve and mainline take all the flying... even the POS Bros you guys fly... AND those regional pilots come to mainline with longevity credit... except for Skywest pilots. For not being ALPA you guys can interview and start all over.... but not to worry... you guys get other bennies for free, why not that...

shiznit

SKYW has a vote and brings ALPA on board.... Then a filing with the NMB for single carrier status.

4600 XJT + 3200 SKYW pilots = 7,800 pilot unified and able to negotiate with much more strength.

As it stands they are playing the two groups against each other and freezing the pay and working conditions of both groups. Sad that the movement hasn't gained more steam.

Here's to hoping the next drive is successful.

JustAMushroom

Decertify ALPA and have an in house union and you'll have a chance.

clearprop

Well said. +1

Snarge

In house unions are weak... including the APA... they just don't have the resources, political connections and most importantly, money.

An in house regional union would be easily infiltrated by management, owned and controlled...

HermannGraf

Very smart attempt to sound wise explaining capitalism and explaining how unions cannot work ( that they only provide medical council, etc) and how higher salaries for pilots would not work at the Regional level because it always takes the cost up for the company.

It sounds like you are very anti union but trying to cover it with nice explanations that many will easely swallow. Not me, I see right trough you. Capitalism out of control is what we have at the regional level and that is not something acceptable, good, cool or "nothing to do about". Don't get me wrong, I believe in Capitalism and it is the best system while it is healthy but when it get sick or out of control it destroys everything if not controlled and corrected.

How come that when pilots demand raise it always take the total cost up too much but when management gives themselves 60 to 100% raise it is never a problem?

At skywest the management used SAPA to make the pilots believe they are getting a 2 million package when the package was actually covered by not extending the 1% cola and making it more difficult for reserves to break guarantee and saving on not having to pay anything connected to it. They also used SAPA to make the pilot group believe that raising the BRO FO salary for second year was something the company was giving to the pilot group. That raise does not cost the company a dime as it is covered by the seatlocks and lower training cost. And the company is just doing it to attract more pilots because it cannot fill classes. Now, this package that the company used SAPA to convince the pilots that under the current regional market situation it is a very generous package and that they should accept and bla bla bla and took so much work to reach bla bla. Are you kidding me? Not only did it not cost the company a dime but they made the pilot group believe it had a 2 million value, amazing. Now let's for the hell of it believe that the package would have a 2 million dollar value and that that would be an increase in cost for the company and let's compare that will all the salaries increased for any management position of any kind within the company for the last year and see how much 2 million actually is. Funny how a raise for pilots is always a cost that may even take us out of business but millions in raise for management and board is never questioned.

that ALPA did not work or did not help in other Regionals was mainly because the companies were bad managed companies to begin with. When a company is well managed there is space for a union working together with the company to make it succesful and protecting the most important work group in the company, the pilots.

ALPA is much more in benefits than "medical council"

this is included in membership

Loss of License insurance
Lump sum Loss of license insurance
Group term life insurance
Group short term disability insurance
Group 10-year level term life insurance
Long term care insurance
Accidental death and dismeberment insurance
Legal represetation and more

Now, chech how much you are insured by your company and how they value a life of a pilot.

I believe that the list of insurance, etc included in a membership with ALPA is a bargain for 2% and no pilot should be without it.

duvie

I wasn't trying to be wise, or disguise my feelings on anything. I was merely stating one of the two major reasons why our current regional structure and union representation therein does not work very well. I think if anything my post lays out a somewhat convincing groundwork for more unity amongst the unionized regional pilots.

The other major point worth discussing in regards to ALPA, and itself being a union that represents all airline pilots, is that there is a conflict of interest. If the regional unions were able to band together and demand a minimum union wage (for each seat and A/C size), that would put pressure on their regional management, increase their costs, which would in turn increase the cost for the major airlines and they would attempt to pass that through to their labor (pilot) group. Nothing sinister, just capitalism 101: Divide and conquer. You already have ill will from the mainline pilots towards a lot of regional "outsourcing." Much of which the labor groups have transferred to the workers at the regionals themselves. How much worse do you think that would be if there was additional propaganda aimed at them, telling them their raises couldn't be had because of increased cost at the regionals?

The question that you have to ask, is: is the average pilot at a mainline carrier more concerned with the health of their respective airline and their career viability? Or the airline profession as a whole? I don't think you would get an overwhelming answer either way, it would be a large gray area. Therefore the interest of the regional airline pilot are different than those of a major airline pilot, so how can you have one union representing them both effectively?

Bottom line, capitalism punishes the apathetic unmercifully. And at this point our culture is probably too me-centric and shortsighted to band together for the benefit of the group. It's a natural progression (and decline) of a successful democracy. Management is playing chess, and we are playing checkers. Your description Herman, of the Skywest pay proposal and how it is actually cost neutral for management, demonstrates this point exactly.

To recap the two problems are:
1. That as subcontractors or "vendors" we are replaceable, and to have any leverage against the legacy managements (who are the real force trying to drive down the cost, not regional management), labor at the regional level would have to unify.
2. The regional growth phenomenon has produced a new set of pilots, that have a vested interest in making a regional airline a long-term prospect. This ultimately runs counter to the interests of the average mainline pilot. One single union cannot champion the interests of both. It is impossible and that is why ALPA is not very effective

Snarge

Valid discussion, which also goes to show that the Student Council is just a puppet and believing that the OO pilots have 'done anything' is a just propaganda from the company...