Skywest
07-14-2014, 09:57 AM
#5761
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
I touched on this sentiment. That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know. The labor/management relationship doesn't have to be adversarial. I gave two real life examples of that in SWA and pre-2008 XJT. It's just a matter of being able to deal with business in a business way. You can't do that without an NMB recognized bargaining agent. And management knows this. This is like parents dealing with their kids. Well, when they become adults, parents have to deal with their grown children in an adult way. They can no longer just tell them part of the story or tell them a white lie or pacify them long enough to do what they want to do. It becomes a more even handed, rational relationship. But at the same time, it doesn't automatically means that when children become adults, there is conflict. If you want to be treated as an adult, you need to become one and in the process join the rest of us in making this profession and flying in general safer.
07-14-2014, 10:03 AM
#5762
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Seat 0B
Posts: 2,300
I touched on this sentiment. That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know. The labor/management relationship doesn't have to be adversarial. I gave two real life examples of that in SWA and pre-2008 XJT. It's just a matter of being able to deal with business in a business way. You can't do that without an NMB recognized bargaining agent. And management knows this. This is like parents dealing with their kids. Well, when they become adults, parents have to deal with their grown children in an adult way. They can no longer just tell them part of the story or tell them a white lie or pacify them long enough to do what they want to do. It becomes a more even handed, rational relationship. But at the same time, it doesn't automatically means that when children become adults, there is conflict. If you want to be treated as an adult, you need to become one and in the process join the rest of us in making this profession and flying in general safer.
07-14-2014, 10:51 AM
#5764
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: RJ Captain
Posts: 1,181
This website needs an ignore user function.
07-14-2014, 12:12 PM
#5767
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
How do you explain the hundreds of SkyWest guy that "do know" and preach against it or want nothing to do with it?
Your assumptions are baffling. It's like you assume SkyWest is in North Korea. How many of us have close friends or spouses at other carriers? How many of us have left other carriers? There's not a info black out here.
There has been and continue to be a healthy discussion about organizing. And I've said before the XJT state of affairs makes it much harder to sell.
Your assumptions are baffling. It's like you assume SkyWest is in North Korea. How many of us have close friends or spouses at other carriers? How many of us have left other carriers? There's not a info black out here.
There has been and continue to be a healthy discussion about organizing. And I've said before the XJT state of affairs makes it much harder to sell.
07-14-2014, 12:34 PM
#5768
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
I touched on this sentiment. That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know. The labor/management relationship doesn't have to be adversarial. I gave two real life examples of that in SWA and pre-2008 XJT. It's just a matter of being able to deal with business in a business way. You can't do that without an NMB recognized bargaining agent. And management knows this. This is like parents dealing with their kids. Well, when they become adults, parents have to deal with their grown children in an adult way. They can no longer just tell them part of the story or tell them a white lie or pacify them long enough to do what they want to do. It becomes a more even handed, rational relationship. But at the same time, it doesn't automatically means that when children become adults, there is conflict. If you want to be treated as an adult, you need to become one and in the process join the rest of us in making this profession and flying in general safer.
Are there any success stories for regionals that brought in ALPA or APA?
Originally Posted by Nevets
I touched on this sentiment. That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know. The labor/management relationship doesn't have to be adversarial. I gave two real life examples of that in SWA and pre-2008 XJT. It's just a matter of being able to deal with business in a business way. You can't do that without an NMB recognized bargaining agent. And management knows this. This is like parents dealing with their kids. Well, when they become adults, parents have to deal with their grown children in an adult way. They can no longer just tell them part of the story or tell them a white lie or pacify them long enough to do what they want to do. It becomes a more even handed, rational relationship. But at the same time, it doesn't automatically means that when children become adults, there is conflict. If you want to be treated as an adult, you need to become one and in the process join the rest of us in making this profession and flying in general safer.
Are there any success stories for regionals that brought in ALPA or APA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevets
That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know.
How do you explain the hundreds of SkyWest guy that "do know" and preach against it or want nothing to do with it?
Your assumptions are baffling. It's like you assume SkyWest is in North Korea. How many of us have close friends or spouses at other carriers? How many of us have left other carriers? There's not a info black out here.
There has been and continue to be a healthy discussion about organizing. And I've said before the XJT state of affairs makes it much harder to sell.
Originally Posted by Nevets
That's what I mean by, you don't know what you don't know.
How do you explain the hundreds of SkyWest guy that "do know" and preach against it or want nothing to do with it?
Your assumptions are baffling. It's like you assume SkyWest is in North Korea. How many of us have close friends or spouses at other carriers? How many of us have left other carriers? There's not a info black out here.
There has been and continue to be a healthy discussion about organizing. And I've said before the XJT state of affairs makes it much harder to sell.
The same thing with disciplinary action. The union, by virtue of being the pilots' representative, knows ALL disciplinary hearings/investigations. Again, this information can be used to advice pilots what not to do (how not to get yourself suspended or fired) because the company is concentrating on certain things, like stealing or what not. Or if there is no basis for disciplinary action, the union, first defends the pilot (DD comes to mind), and secondly can inform the pilot of proper behavior/choices/actions that you should not be concerned about as far as getting in trouble.
The union does this from a vantage of being a federally recognized entity with certain rights and privileges and most importantly with it's own funding. In other words, it's an unbiased position to represent the pilots from without fear of any kind of retribution, as small and subtle that it more often than not it is.
So to reiterate, I'm not talking about industry knowledge of what's going on around other properties in general. I'm talking about institutional knowledge of your own property and how and why your management manages it's own employees, collecting that information, and using it to the benefit of the pilots in order to come to a more fair balance and not with the tip of the scales on the side of management. Even with a union, the scales are tipped the other way. Without one and without being able to have a legal say on how you are treated, then they are tipped even more and the only reason why you may not see it is because you are not allowed to see it as individuals. In other words, you dont now know what you don't know because you are not allowed to know.
Lastly, just because its bad at XJT or endeavor or eagle, doesn't mean that it would automatically 100% be bad somewhere else. Each property has different management, financials, culture, pay and benefits, etc. As a union, you govern yourselves. You decide how to handle the work of the union. The union doesnt decide how management deals with it's business or employees. The union only decides how to deal with how management deals with the union. It doesnt have to be adversarial. But when it needs to be, you have the option without fear of retribution. That's at least a little leverage you now have with a union.
Last edited by Nevets; 07-14-2014 at 01:00 PM.
07-14-2014, 01:47 PM
#5769
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,057
There are success stories most union properties. For example, and I mentioned this before, imagine how much worse things would be for Mesa pilots if JO could've done what he wanted? Also, Eagle won their arbitration that kept their flow through. And there are countless of grievances won that wouldn't have gotten the light of day without a legally binding contract that only an NMB recognized bargaining agent can negotiate and enforce.
I didn't explain myself then. I don't mean knowledge of how things are at other places. I'm talking about having a central repository of information within your group. A union, as part of making sure the contract is followed, collects information from pilots reporting alleged violations. This allows the union to know which sections are being continually violated. There is almost always a reason why the company does this. The union can bring this to their attention and find out why they are interpreting certain language differently now. It's almost always an operational or financial reason why. With that information, the union can decide whether to grieve it or if it's a benefit to the pilots or a win/win scenario, they can negotiate with the company to get something in return. It's usually clarification of the offending language in exchange to some other benefit the pilot group wants in another area, maybe clarification on another section. Many times these things turn into a Memorandum of Understanding or a Letter of Agreement that gets incorporated into the contract.
The same thing with disciplinary action. The union, by virtue of being the pilots' representative, knows ALL disciplinary hearings/investigations. Again, this information can be used to advice pilots what not to do (how not to get yourself suspended or fired) because the company is concentrating on certain things, like stealing or what not. Or if there is no basis for disciplinary action, the union, first defends the pilot (DD comes to mind), and secondly can inform the pilot of proper behavior/choices/actions that you should not be concerned about as far as getting in trouble.
The union does this from a vantage of being a federally recognized entity with certain rights and privileges and most importantly with it's own funding. In other words, it's an unbiased position to represent the pilots from without fear of any kind of retribution, as small and subtle that it more often than not it is.
So to reiterate, I'm not talking about industry knowledge of what's going on around other properties in general. I'm talking about institutional knowledge of your own property and how and why your management manages it's own employees, collecting that information, and using it to the benefit of the pilots in order to come to a more fair balance and not with the tip of the scales on the side of management. Even with a union, the scales are tipped the other way. Without one and without being able to have a legal say on how you are treated, then they are tipped even more and the only reason why you may not see it is because you are not allowed to see it as individuals. In other words, you dont now know what you don't know because you are not allowed to know.
Lastly, just because its bad at XJT or endeavor or eagle, doesn't mean that it would automatically 100% be bad somewhere else. Each property has different management, financials, culture, pay and benefits, etc. As a union, you govern yourselves. You decide how to handle the work of the union. The union doesnt decide how management deals with it's business or employees. The union only decides how to deal with how management deals with the union. It doesnt have to be adversarial. But when it needs to be, you have the option without fear of retribution. That's at least a little leverage you now have with a union.
I didn't explain myself then. I don't mean knowledge of how things are at other places. I'm talking about having a central repository of information within your group. A union, as part of making sure the contract is followed, collects information from pilots reporting alleged violations. This allows the union to know which sections are being continually violated. There is almost always a reason why the company does this. The union can bring this to their attention and find out why they are interpreting certain language differently now. It's almost always an operational or financial reason why. With that information, the union can decide whether to grieve it or if it's a benefit to the pilots or a win/win scenario, they can negotiate with the company to get something in return. It's usually clarification of the offending language in exchange to some other benefit the pilot group wants in another area, maybe clarification on another section. Many times these things turn into a Memorandum of Understanding or a Letter of Agreement that gets incorporated into the contract.
The same thing with disciplinary action. The union, by virtue of being the pilots' representative, knows ALL disciplinary hearings/investigations. Again, this information can be used to advice pilots what not to do (how not to get yourself suspended or fired) because the company is concentrating on certain things, like stealing or what not. Or if there is no basis for disciplinary action, the union, first defends the pilot (DD comes to mind), and secondly can inform the pilot of proper behavior/choices/actions that you should not be concerned about as far as getting in trouble.
The union does this from a vantage of being a federally recognized entity with certain rights and privileges and most importantly with it's own funding. In other words, it's an unbiased position to represent the pilots from without fear of any kind of retribution, as small and subtle that it more often than not it is.
So to reiterate, I'm not talking about industry knowledge of what's going on around other properties in general. I'm talking about institutional knowledge of your own property and how and why your management manages it's own employees, collecting that information, and using it to the benefit of the pilots in order to come to a more fair balance and not with the tip of the scales on the side of management. Even with a union, the scales are tipped the other way. Without one and without being able to have a legal say on how you are treated, then they are tipped even more and the only reason why you may not see it is because you are not allowed to see it as individuals. In other words, you dont now know what you don't know because you are not allowed to know.
Lastly, just because its bad at XJT or endeavor or eagle, doesn't mean that it would automatically 100% be bad somewhere else. Each property has different management, financials, culture, pay and benefits, etc. As a union, you govern yourselves. You decide how to handle the work of the union. The union doesnt decide how management deals with it's business or employees. The union only decides how to deal with how management deals with the union. It doesnt have to be adversarial. But when it needs to be, you have the option without fear of retribution. That's at least a little leverage you now have with a union.
Nevets,
You are not a SKW airlines employee, nor an interested applicant. In the spirit of keeping this thread on track, ie about SKW life and rumors, please stop discussing union issues or SKW vs. Surejet issues here. Feel free to create new threads for those specific purposes (a union debate needs to be in the union forum).
Thanks.
07-14-2014, 02:26 PM
#5770
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: Big foot
Posts: 451
Nevets
This message is hidden because Nevets is on your ignore list.
Whew.....
This message is hidden because Nevets is on your ignore list.
Whew.....
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