Skywest
10-20-2015, 07:43 AM
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
Posts: 1,167
Fixed it for you. This is the overall crux of the entire problem. If you have coverage dates at 23% seniority, something is f'ed up. The system should have a way to start filling those gaps at 60-70% and the other trips that are not covered should be dropped into open time. If you really need the 1st of the month off and the 1st and 2nd are coverage dates (like the CA who posted on the internal forums) and you are bidding 41% seniority, you should not have your entire month flushed down the toilet to cover the 1st and the 2nd where they are not holidays. How in the hell are you supposed to know when you are bidding your trips that you need to base your month around some arbitrary dates that are not determined until the bid starts processing??
Say what you will, but PBS has always been crappy but if you took the time to learn it, it would help increase your QOL. But anyone who has taken a computer programming class knows one of the first things your learn is "crap in, crap out" You can't force 90 hours on 75% of your pilot group with no way to improve their line. Top 25% guy trying to bid locals and standups and getting 95 hours worth of 4 days? Totally unacceptable.
Where PBS has so much control of our lives, we should have a bigger stake in the parameters. And I am not talking about having a SAPA PBS "expert" who bids 7% in their base and has no desire to help other than helping KH make up reasons you screwed your bid up. We have some smart pilots here that could make PBS more user friendly, but as it stands AOS is doing exactly what the company needs and it doesn't care how many trips are awarded outside of seniority because it allows SW to run lean.
Say what you will, but PBS has always been crappy but if you took the time to learn it, it would help increase your QOL. But anyone who has taken a computer programming class knows one of the first things your learn is "crap in, crap out" You can't force 90 hours on 75% of your pilot group with no way to improve their line. Top 25% guy trying to bid locals and standups and getting 95 hours worth of 4 days? Totally unacceptable.
Where PBS has so much control of our lives, we should have a bigger stake in the parameters. And I am not talking about having a SAPA PBS "expert" who bids 7% in their base and has no desire to help other than helping KH make up reasons you screwed your bid up. We have some smart pilots here that could make PBS more user friendly, but as it stands AOS is doing exactly what the company needs and it doesn't care how many trips are awarded outside of seniority because it allows SW to run lean.
Read all the pages.
What is Preferential Bidding System ?
KH has gotten his hands into the programming, and while AA and others use it, SKYW has customized it in ways that make it un recognizable to the original product. AOS has an interesting backstory, that goes a ways back, Google is your friend as TOR as well....
10-20-2015, 07:45 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,205
Those records are not shared outside the company. Legally, aside from PRIA records the only thing a Chief can tell is whether or not you are eligible to be re-hired.
10-20-2015, 07:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,205
10-20-2015, 08:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Downward Dog
Posts: 1,875
I don't have experience with other pbs systems, but I thought other airlines did bid trips purely via seniority. It's my belief globalization feature being switched on In pbs allow skyw (in part) to run lean compared to others.
10-20-2015, 08:21 AM
MK Ultra Candidate
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: Prime Leader of Boko Harumph
Posts: 1,167
10-20-2015, 09:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 613
Just a couple of gems from the AOS website:
"you can certainly learn it in 20 minutes"
Q: PBS may award my preferred pairings to junior for overall coverage reason."
A: No, PBS should not do that, it violates seniority. However, to solve overall coverage, PBS will force you (and everyone junior than you) to work on certain days
Seniority is everything not just very true in PBS, but also true in Bid Line system. However, you should be awarded with your specific days off, preferred layover cities, credit hours, etc. Or being awarded as reserve for those important days off.
Honor Preference by Seniority
This is the most important part of the PBS. PBS may be referred to as "Preferential Bidding by Seniority". Unless being awarded to senior crewmembers, all pairings are available to each crewmember to make the best legal line based on his/her preferences.
And this one right here was my favorite part:
Q:"Company uses PBS to force us covering more credit."
A:The simple math is the average credit is the total credit (of the bid month pairings plus the pre-assignments) divided by total crewmembers. PBS cannot change the math. In the bid line system, it just cannot construct high credit line due to the conflict. Your high credit is a result of not enough crewmembers. Under the condition of "not enough crewmembers", "covering all (or most) pairings" and "honoring your low credit preference" are two conflict goals to PBS. PBS has to award high credit lines from the bottom (most junior) up to cover all pairings. How to balance them is up to your union and the company. "Having the ability of constructing high credit legal lines" is not a fault, but an ability, of the PBS.
I'm sure if SAPA asked for the company parameters that KH uses they would give them that list. It sounds like whatever programming that has been done has wrecked what PBS is supposed to do and left us with what we are getting now.
10-20-2015, 09:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 613
I heard that Delta asks for the number of absences over a 12 or 18 month period. Even if they don't have the ability to verify (which I am sure there is some way) I don't plan on giving anything but a 100% truthful answer. I'm sure I can just hand over a copy of my awarded lines each month over the last couple years to show how I needed to call in so I wouldn't go over my 1,000 hours in 12 months.
10-20-2015, 09:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 472
That is awesome because I remember reading on his 25 year anniversary blab about how he had a degree in programming. Oh wait, that's not what it said....
Just a couple of gems from the AOS website:
"you can certainly learn it in 20 minutes"
Q: PBS may award my preferred pairings to junior for overall coverage reason."
A: No, PBS should not do that, it violates seniority. However, to solve overall coverage, PBS will force you (and everyone junior than you) to work on certain days
Seniority is everything not just very true in PBS, but also true in Bid Line system. However, you should be awarded with your specific days off, preferred layover cities, credit hours, etc. Or being awarded as reserve for those important days off.
Honor Preference by Seniority
This is the most important part of the PBS. PBS may be referred to as "Preferential Bidding by Seniority". Unless being awarded to senior crewmembers, all pairings are available to each crewmember to make the best legal line based on his/her preferences.
And this one right here was my favorite part:
Q:"Company uses PBS to force us covering more credit."
A:The simple math is the average credit is the total credit (of the bid month pairings plus the pre-assignments) divided by total crewmembers. PBS cannot change the math. In the bid line system, it just cannot construct high credit line due to the conflict. Your high credit is a result of not enough crewmembers. Under the condition of "not enough crewmembers", "covering all (or most) pairings" and "honoring your low credit preference" are two conflict goals to PBS. PBS has to award high credit lines from the bottom (most junior) up to cover all pairings. How to balance them is up to your union and the company. "Having the ability of constructing high credit legal lines" is not a fault, but an ability, of the PBS.
I'm sure if SAPA asked for the company parameters that KH uses they would give them that list. It sounds like whatever programming that has been done has wrecked what PBS is supposed to do and left us with what we are getting now.
Just a couple of gems from the AOS website:
"you can certainly learn it in 20 minutes"
Q: PBS may award my preferred pairings to junior for overall coverage reason."
A: No, PBS should not do that, it violates seniority. However, to solve overall coverage, PBS will force you (and everyone junior than you) to work on certain days
Seniority is everything not just very true in PBS, but also true in Bid Line system. However, you should be awarded with your specific days off, preferred layover cities, credit hours, etc. Or being awarded as reserve for those important days off.
Honor Preference by Seniority
This is the most important part of the PBS. PBS may be referred to as "Preferential Bidding by Seniority". Unless being awarded to senior crewmembers, all pairings are available to each crewmember to make the best legal line based on his/her preferences.
And this one right here was my favorite part:
Q:"Company uses PBS to force us covering more credit."
A:The simple math is the average credit is the total credit (of the bid month pairings plus the pre-assignments) divided by total crewmembers. PBS cannot change the math. In the bid line system, it just cannot construct high credit line due to the conflict. Your high credit is a result of not enough crewmembers. Under the condition of "not enough crewmembers", "covering all (or most) pairings" and "honoring your low credit preference" are two conflict goals to PBS. PBS has to award high credit lines from the bottom (most junior) up to cover all pairings. How to balance them is up to your union and the company. "Having the ability of constructing high credit legal lines" is not a fault, but an ability, of the PBS.
I'm sure if SAPA asked for the company parameters that KH uses they would give them that list. It sounds like whatever programming that has been done has wrecked what PBS is supposed to do and left us with what we are getting now.
The math is very simply. MDG is 4.2. The max FDP in a months are 20. So the maximum hours you can cover with poor trips is 84. If the goal is to reach 90 you have to trade off some trips and award higher credit trips to junior people. The nice side effect for the company is that senior people will be forced to work more coverage day because they simply won't get the sweat high credit trips exclusively.
And btw, this will only get worse in January as the max number of FDP will drop to 19 per the new contract. So expect to see even more redistribution from top to bottom....
10-20-2015, 09:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 182
Mid-seniority bidder... 14 days of work in Oct, and Nov. Normal amount of credit, I don't try for more or less. All trips P1. I asked for T-giving 4-day weekend off and was surprised to get it at my seniority, that and I don't like to get up too early in the morning all the time. Simple.
I guess I could ask for more and see how that goes..... most people, I think, ask for too much in their bids, and then get upset when it doesn't work. LIke a kid in a candy store, but with only a little bit of money in their pocket. Read the PBS documents closely... very closely. Like CCB said, simple is better.
I guess I could ask for more and see how that goes..... most people, I think, ask for too much in their bids, and then get upset when it doesn't work. LIke a kid in a candy store, but with only a little bit of money in their pocket. Read the PBS documents closely... very closely. Like CCB said, simple is better.
10-20-2015, 11:00 AM
Dumb Pilot
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: Broke
Posts: 784
No that's not how it goes. We are the only idiots in the industry that allows our senority to be trampled.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
