Originally Posted by word302

Do you think anyone's going to read that? Or as the kids would say, tl;dr

Originally Posted by Utah

The info on MX pay is available for anyone that wants to look at it. The 3 year/10 year claim is highly doubtful.

One interesting thing to note is that they are getting 4-5% annual increases to their rates compared to our typical 1% or less.

Originally Posted by Duesenflieger

Where is this information to be found?

Originally Posted by Mercyful Fate

I am curious why you are calling Nev as looking stupid? Since this is a post directed at him, why are you taking issue with him? He is far from stupid, and quite a smart guy. I don't agree with him and have different viewpoints, but he is for sure not an idiot. Going to stand up for him on this one. You are way out of line.

Originally Posted by Mercyful Fate

What part of this are you confused about?

Originally Posted by Nevjets

You make some points, that I'm sure are based on your past experiences. So let me just try to counter them from what I've learned.

1. My biggest push against this excuse (unions are only good at mainline) is that places like TSA, RAH, Endeavor, Mesa, etc would be worse off if they were non-union. Their pay and work rules would be worse, or not as good in their new contract, or they wouldn't have been able to represent themselves before a bankruptcy judge and therefore their pay, benefits, and work rules would have been imposed on them. None of these outcomes helps any other union or non-union regional pilot group as it would put more downward pressure on them to compete with lower costs. Yes, believe it or not, if a place like mesa was non-union, we would all be forced to compete with a lower cost mesa if it wasn't for their union. And keep in mind, mesa pilots would've have all been on the street when management created Freedom, another protection from their union.

2. You are correct that there are protections already in place for everyone, yet your misunderstanding my biggest point. I'll get back to that in a bit. But let me acknowledge that all pilots, union and non-union, are protected by these laws and probably more that I missed:

AIR21 (discrimination and whistleblower protection)
RLA (right to organize)
OSHA
ERISA
FMLA
EEOC
WARN
COBRA
ADA
HIPPA
Polygraph protection
Worker's comp and various state laws depending on where you are based (kin care in California, for example)

I never said that not having a union is the end of the world. My point has always been that a union is a lot more than just having an NMB recognized and enforceable collective bargaining agreement. I've also made the case for ALPA being the largest non-governmental air safety and security organization. Not to mention ALPAs work in successfully lobbying for other federal employment laws. But my point about all these protections is that with a union, you don't ever have to worry if you could ever afford to litigate your rights under the dozen or so employee protection laws I listed. As a union member, if you feel your labor law rights or contractual rights have been violated, there is an orderly process by which to have your grievances heard, and ultimately decided by a neutral third party, if need be. A union member doesn't have to lose their job first, for example, before having their issue resolved one way or another. Trust me, employers know that they can get away with certain things because most pilots will not put hundreds of their own dollars, much less thousands, to fight their case, especially when the cost/benefit analysis doesn't make sense. Most pilots don't want to make a name for themselves that way either, so they rollover and maybe become disgruntled. In a pilot union, management is kept more honest, which can make for a more professional relationship. Also, because of the dispute resolution process, the grievance is handled in a lot less personal way.

Lastly, you (and others) have made the conflict of interest charge many times. First, having a pilot union doesn't mean having ALPA. So I always see that excuse as disingenuous. You could always chose the IBT, for example. But let me explain, again, how there is no conflict of interest. Each MEC, whether mainline or regional, is independent of each other. Regional MECs decide for themselves, with no one who isn't a pilot employed at that regional able to force them to do anything they don't want, what to negotiate for or not negotiate for, what to agree or not agree, and what to ratify or not ratify. NO ONE at ALPA national can compel ANY MEC what to do! ALPA national can only make MECs comply with the constitution and by-laws and the Administrative Manual. In fact, the only time that ALPA national has intervened is when one regional negotiated a CONCESSIONARY contract, lowering costs that you say helps mainline pilots. One other thing, almost half of ALPA national is made up of regional pilots. ALPA being a conflict of interest is a misnomer. ALPA is not perfect and have made many big mistakes (from mainline pilots as well), but they are not the boogey man many regional pilots make them out to be. It's more likely that your ALPA experience came from a regional with a hostile management that exist at places such as mesa, TSA, RAH, or AA wholy owned. OR maybe there were one of more bad apple MEC members.

ALPA is a collection of independent unions. Once you are ALPA or any other union, you have decided to give yourself EXTRA rights under the RLA not afforded to you as an at-will employee.