News on the new Skywest pay package
05-31-2017, 06:13 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:
- A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
- Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
- We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
- Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.
05-31-2017, 06:21 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Did you not read that Amcnd had an ALPA pin? I think you underestimate the number of SkyWest pilots that came from an ALPA carrier. Or have worked at a union airline.
Most of the guys you interpret as going la la la have lived through an ALPA regional. So they're not just ignoring an opinion, they have seen what a union offers at the regional level and have decided that it's not beneficial.
The guys that are ok with unions at the majors are living a different reality. The biggest argument against ALPA at the regionals is Mesa. What has ALPA done for Mesa pilots? Has their legal protection done much for them?
At the legacies there's more money even at 2%. Larger compensation means 2% is a bigger total dollar amount, especially on the scale of the legacy airlines.
Most of the guys you interpret as going la la la have lived through an ALPA regional. So they're not just ignoring an opinion, they have seen what a union offers at the regional level and have decided that it's not beneficial.
The guys that are ok with unions at the majors are living a different reality. The biggest argument against ALPA at the regionals is Mesa. What has ALPA done for Mesa pilots? Has their legal protection done much for them?
At the legacies there's more money even at 2%. Larger compensation means 2% is a bigger total dollar amount, especially on the scale of the legacy airlines.
My main point was that you can actually have it both ways. Credit where credit is due, SKW has a pretty darn good management group with a semi decent relationship with its pilots. I think it's faulty logic to think that our management will all of a sudden turn on us just because we vote in a union, it just doesn't make sense. It's a false dichotomy. SkyWest is not Mesa, or Pinnacle, or GoJet.
All you have to do is look at Southwest to see that having a good strong union, AND and a good relationship with management are not mutually exclusive.
05-31-2017, 06:47 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: RJ Captain
Posts: 1,183
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:
- A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
- Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
- We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
- Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.
I'll give you one thing though. This historical credit thing is utter crap. It's an easy 2-3% pay cut, yet we have pilots here that argue for it. I've got 30+ hours of block on my schedule over the next week and 28 hours of credit.
05-31-2017, 07:32 AM
#104
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,275
I usually end flying the block anyway, without trying hard to do that. The credit usually only kicks in if you cancel. I personally would prefer to fry other fish.
05-31-2017, 07:40 AM
#105
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,580
Let me ask you a honest question. Do you believe for one second if a union were to happen, that business would just continue as normal? You believe the dynamic of the current business model would remain intact if a union was on property?
Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.
Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.
That being said, I don't think Skywest management would tank their relationship with the pilot group for becoming union. Would it be a less friendly negotiating environment? Sure. When your bargaining agent only has its pilots interests in mind and the company theirs, there is going to be some gamesmanship. It might longer than it currently does. But, in a union environment and a pro-negotiating environment like we have now, you'll be more likely to get things that directly improve pilot QOL even if it hurts the bottom line a little. Right now, the pilots are given only what the company is willing to give to keep a union off property. No more.
05-31-2017, 07:46 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,084
Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. I came from Mesa and yes, the pay sucks, but there are facets of their work agreement that are better than SkyWest's BECAUSE they are ALPA. A short list:
- A decent PBS system. Mesa uses the same PBS software that Delta and Hawaiian use, so it's already been pretty thoroughly vetted. It actually honors seniority, doesn't pull the "replaced/not awarded due to line constraints" b.s. ours does, and if you tell it to stop adding trips after it reaches the credit window, it actually stops. I've only scratched the surface here but it's WAY better than the system we have.
- Mesa pilots are paid block or better, not this historical credit or better scheme. Yes, they lack many of the pay protections but if mainline says a leg takes 2:12, you're getting at least 2:12, regardless of whether previous crews have flown it in an average of 1:48.
- We get 5 golden days a year here, Mesa pilots get 3 golden days EVERY MONTH.
- Lastly, and to your last point, I can think of only one or two pilots who were fired during my time there, and several more who got a slap on the wrist for stuff that would've gotten them fired here...all because they had ALPA lawyers available to them with just one phone call.
05-31-2017, 07:58 AM
#107
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,275
Actually, a very senior SKW manager once told me that SGU would be OK with a pilot union. That way they could compensate the pilots the way they need in the competitive market (including things like work rules, 401k, and other carve outs) without being obligated to give the same to all other work groups (in accordance with the one-big-happy-family philosophy). When the other employees complain, they can blame it on the union.
Since that conversation, the company has unilaterally carved out special treatment for pilots even without a union as an excuse (split PPM from FA's, PPS).
Actually my only real concern with alpa right now would be a common carrier petition from XJT.
Since that conversation, the company has unilaterally carved out special treatment for pilots even without a union as an excuse (split PPM from FA's, PPS).
Actually my only real concern with alpa right now would be a common carrier petition from XJT.
05-31-2017, 08:17 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Let me ask you a honest question. Do you believe for one second if a union were to happen, that business would just continue as normal? You believe the dynamic of the current business model would remain intact if a union was on property?
Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.
Why on earth has so much effort been put forth to management to make sure a union never happens? You vote a union in, you put in place a power struggle between a work group and management. Then, it becomes a matter of who can puff their chests out better to get what they want.
No, that's the entire point. The power structure would shift towards the pilots. Isn't that a good thing? It's called leverage. It sure beats the company shills we call SAPA that wholesale to the pilots absolutely anything that the company gives them. SAPA is just one gigantic conflict of interest.
Would SkyWest's business model remain in tact?
Of course it would. Is that a serious question? Skywest is a publicly traded company. They're in the business of making money. Union or otherwise. It just doesn't make sense to think having a union would suddenly upend the company's business model. Would the relationship with the pilots change? Absolutely. Would the relationship completely tank? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because again, it's in Skywest best business interests to maintain a good as possible relationship with its labor groups. Union or not.
The only thing that would change with a union at Skywest, is a little stronger legal standing and protection for pilots, a negligible amount of negotiating leverage, and a level of independence of representation removed from company infulance.
I'll say it one last time, because it bears repeating. Skywest management is not going to shoot themselves in the foot by punishing the pilot group for voting in a union. Nothing will crash and burn. It's not in their best interests. It's business. Not personal.
05-31-2017, 08:51 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Why does either side have to have control of the "power structure" as you call it? By saying that however, you somewhat show how a struggle for power becomes into play with a union. You think the airlines management is going to roll over, and play the submissive role? In all due respect, I think you are living in a fantasy world with your frame of thinking.
I've never once said management will roll over and take a submissive role. That's you putting words into my mouth. You call it a struggle, I call it A business relationship. That's how business works. A healthy relationship, with a rational parties, will yield a mutually beneficial result. That's business 101. That's how it works. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved. I personally think we have a pretty keen management group and I give them a lot of respect. SAPA on the other hand is a complete joke. They don't work for the pilots, they work for the company. Period. A relationship is only as good as the parties involved.
Case in point. Everybody likes to bash ALPA at the regional level. Fine. But, take a look at endeavor. Not pinnacle, but endeavor. Ask any of their pilots how happy they are and how they're doing. I think you will find that they are pretty happy right now, their ALPA representation included. Why is that? What changed? I'll tell you what changed. It was their entire upper management and their way of running that business. It takes two to tango.
The relationship at endeavor pretty much changed overnight, not because of the union, but because Delta finally wised up, change their thinking and replace the entire upper management team. Interesting how that works. They're doing pretty well over there
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