American 767 fire at Chicago O'Hare
10-29-2016, 02:11 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 777 Left
Posts: 347
I know I deal here with pilots extraordinaires knowing all and I'm just an ignorant 20000 hours novice.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
10-29-2016, 03:13 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,600
I know I deal here with pilots extraordinaires knowing all and I'm just an ignorant 20000 hours novice.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
10-29-2016, 06:31 PM
#35
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Ah, throw the book at them? Really? And what law did they break? I suppose somebody could make a case in civil court but there certainly is no criminal violation here. We don't live in a totalitarian state, yet.
10-29-2016, 07:12 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
Criminal Code of Illinois
Sec. 12-5. Reckless conduct.
(720 ILCS 5/12-5)
(a) A person who causes bodily harm to or endangers the bodily safety of an individual by any means, commits reckless conduct if he or she performs recklessly the acts that cause the harm or endanger safety, whether they otherwise are lawful or unlawful. (a-5) A person who causes great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement by any means, commits reckless conduct if he or she performs recklessly the acts that cause the harm, whether they otherwise are lawful or unlawful.
(b) Sentence.
Reckless conduct under subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor. Reckless conduct under subsection (a-5) is a Class 4 felony. (Source: P.A. 93-710, eff. 1-1-05.)
(720 ILCS 5/12-5)
(a) A person who causes bodily harm to or endangers the bodily safety of an individual by any means, commits reckless conduct if he or she performs recklessly the acts that cause the harm or endanger safety, whether they otherwise are lawful or unlawful. (a-5) A person who causes great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement by any means, commits reckless conduct if he or she performs recklessly the acts that cause the harm, whether they otherwise are lawful or unlawful.
(b) Sentence.
Reckless conduct under subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor. Reckless conduct under subsection (a-5) is a Class 4 felony. (Source: P.A. 93-710, eff. 1-1-05.)
(720 ILCS 5/4-6) (from Ch. 38, par. 4-6)
Sec. 4-6. Recklessness. A person is reckless or acts recklessly when that person consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that circumstances exist or that a result will follow, described by the statute defining the offense, and that disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the situation. An act performed recklessly is performed wantonly, within the meaning of a statute using the term "wantonly", unless the statute clearly requires another meaning.
(Source: P.A. 96-710, eff. 1-1-10.)
Sec. 4-6. Recklessness. A person is reckless or acts recklessly when that person consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that circumstances exist or that a result will follow, described by the statute defining the offense, and that disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the situation. An act performed recklessly is performed wantonly, within the meaning of a statute using the term "wantonly", unless the statute clearly requires another meaning.
(Source: P.A. 96-710, eff. 1-1-10.)
Last edited by Hetman; 10-29-2016 at 07:26 PM.
10-29-2016, 07:21 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,341
Then you will have 200 passengers wasting time trying to pry open locked overhead bins. By the time a passenger gets to the exit with their bag, the damage is already done. To have an FA physically intervene to separate the bag from the passenger will take even more time. Even if the passenger does let go of their bag, the emergency exit area would fill up with discarded bags quickly.
10-29-2016, 07:37 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,341
It would be impossible to be able to fully evaluate an emergency situation after V1 in a large aircraft. The NTSB has a mountain of evidence showing that as an aircraft accelerates, the chances of a successful abort decreases. Even with 20,000 hours, it is really hard to gather the required evidence needed to determine if an abort after V1 is safer. Not to mention you are now eyeballing the remaining runway left for stopping and using your relative experience to attain the stopping performance. Even if you could do those things quickly and accurately, CRM aspects come into play. The majority of the other pilots you are with would not be expecting you to stop and would not feel comfortable. You are having a hard time convincing us to abort after V1 while we are safe and sound typing on a computer. Good luck convincing another pilot while they are dealing with an emergency. And ask a sim instructor about the success rates crews have when they come up with new procedures on the spot.
You specifically mentioned that you would not want to take off with an engine fire. How would you determine if the cause of the engine fire indication was simply a leak in a bleed line blowing hot air over the fire loop? I don't think that would justify a runway overrun. Even if it was on fire, the airstream would push the flames away from the wing so the wing would not have melted like this aircraft (at least until it got back on the ground).
We can come up with an infinite number of scenarios where an abort past V1 is the best decision (even if it would result in some loss of life), but the truth is there is insufficient time to identify and VERIFY those scenarios and the majority of pilots lack the ability to accurately judge distances and the aircraft performance needed to pull that maneuver off.
Last edited by 2StgTurbine; 10-29-2016 at 07:47 PM.
10-29-2016, 07:43 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,341
They know the average passenger will not be an expert at getting out of a plane quickly. I think it is far more likely that they redo evacuation certification standards to account for 30% of the passengers bringing a suitcase with them.
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