American 767 fire at Chicago O'Hare
10-29-2016, 06:05 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,244
For more than 20 years, anytime going for training CAE, Flight Safety, Delta or AA facilities I've been asking about this V1 cut in case of fire.
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
Concord crash was alluded to, they had no idea they were in the situation they were in. They also had a rotation speed of something like 240 knots. Best base they would've gone off the end at probably 200 knots. There are a whole lot of reasons you go airborne at V1 with an engine fire, and very VERY few you try and stop.
10-29-2016, 06:57 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
For more than 20 years, anytime going for training CAE, Flight Safety, Delta or AA facilities I've been asking about this V1 cut in case of fire.
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
After a hundred years of engine failures, a lot of people who are a lot smarter than you and I have had plenty of opportunities to figure this engine failure thing out. There is a reason that aviation has gotten as safe as it is today and trying to reinvent the wheel is best left to the experts.
At the very least, if you think you have a better idea, don't try it out with innocent people sitting behind you. Go rent a twin and be a maverick all by yourself.
10-29-2016, 07:20 AM
#23
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,057
For more than 20 years, anytime going for training CAE, Flight Safety, Delta or AA facilities I've been asking about this V1 cut in case of fire.
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
Always I've been told before V1 stop, after V1 continue. Which in the sim works beautiful. I tried and try to advocate differently. And always I bring up the Concorde scenario. They took off, all dead. If the pilots would have put the plane streaight ahead, maybe some people will be alive today. Pilots crucified for not following procedure, but some people alive.
Same with this AA plane. They were lucky for catching the fire before V1. Otherwise all would be dead now. And that's because the stupid procedure we learn vis-a-vis V1 cuts.
I survived a plane fire 30 years ago. In my book during an engine fire the only safer place is on the ground. This crop flying around and making poetry with an engine on fire doesn't cut it for me. Just sayn'
Very long runway, relatively small/light airplane? In that case V1 = Vr . If you're not airborne you can reasonably just put the nose back down and stop.
Otherwise, you're making it up as you go and have to assume you're going off the end and it will be ugly. How do you assess which is worse? Apparently the FAA thinks statistically going flying is safer, and I don't have any hard science to refute that, so that's what I'll do.
If tower says "your wing is on fire" then I guess I'll crank it around for a very short downwind, turn final over the ALSF and plop it right on.
10-29-2016, 08:56 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: FAA ATSI VSRP ERC
Posts: 218
Interestingly, AA 383 has a grim history:
Crash of AA Flight 383 | ExploreKYHistory
Crash of AA Flight 383
By Becky Riddle
Historical Marker #2343 commemorates American Airlines flight #383, which crashed in Boone County on November 8, 1965, as it was landing at the Greater Cincinnati Airport in Constance.
American Airlines flight 383, a Boeing 727, was a non-stop flight from LaGuardia Airport (New York) to the Greater Cincinnati Airport. The airplane departed New York at 5:38 pm and was scheduled to arrive in Cincinnati around 7:00 pm. The plane was flown by veteran pilot, Captain Dan Teelin, who had been with American Airlines for over 10 years and, Captain William J. O’Neil, who was being upgraded to captain on the 727.
It was a routine flight and at 6:57 pm, the flight crew notified Cincinnati it was on its final approach. The tower notified Captain Teelin that there was rain in the area, and the captain relayed that the visibility was getting bad. The tower told the crew that the runway lights were on high, but the airplane crashed into a wooded hillside two miles north of the runway 5 seconds later. The plane broke apart and went up in flames. There were two survivors in the front of the plane and two in the back, but the other 58 passengers perished.
Crash of AA Flight 383 | ExploreKYHistory
Crash of AA Flight 383
By Becky Riddle
Historical Marker #2343 commemorates American Airlines flight #383, which crashed in Boone County on November 8, 1965, as it was landing at the Greater Cincinnati Airport in Constance.
American Airlines flight 383, a Boeing 727, was a non-stop flight from LaGuardia Airport (New York) to the Greater Cincinnati Airport. The airplane departed New York at 5:38 pm and was scheduled to arrive in Cincinnati around 7:00 pm. The plane was flown by veteran pilot, Captain Dan Teelin, who had been with American Airlines for over 10 years and, Captain William J. O’Neil, who was being upgraded to captain on the 727.
It was a routine flight and at 6:57 pm, the flight crew notified Cincinnati it was on its final approach. The tower notified Captain Teelin that there was rain in the area, and the captain relayed that the visibility was getting bad. The tower told the crew that the runway lights were on high, but the airplane crashed into a wooded hillside two miles north of the runway 5 seconds later. The plane broke apart and went up in flames. There were two survivors in the front of the plane and two in the back, but the other 58 passengers perished.
10-29-2016, 09:15 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: EZ on rudders, not a C-130...
Posts: 27
New to commercial aviation (but retired from the USAF). Both Emirates and now this AA have passengers grabbing personal gear from overheads and otherwise being stupid. I asked my FA what they are told to do if a pax is doing idiot things like this during an emergency. I was surprised that they were basically limited to verbal chastisement. And I don't recall much instruction on this in my own recent company ground school.
Contrast that to the few evacs I've done over my military career; mil crews and pax get it straight in their heads, get out!
I'm curious if there is anything more than verbal chastisement being discussed. Totally noobie speculation, but maybe having an emergency lock on overheads during critical phases of flight might be a thing.
idk... just glad no one was seriously injured or killed.
Contrast that to the few evacs I've done over my military career; mil crews and pax get it straight in their heads, get out!
I'm curious if there is anything more than verbal chastisement being discussed. Totally noobie speculation, but maybe having an emergency lock on overheads during critical phases of flight might be a thing.
idk... just glad no one was seriously injured or killed.
10-29-2016, 11:07 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 49
I know I deal here with pilots extraordinaires knowing all and I'm just an ignorant 20000 hours novice.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
However, my intention was to give some food for thoughts when dealing with fire.
Many years ago when I had an engine fires at one of the engine I made it out safe by getting on the ground in 25 seconds from 1500 feet. On a farm. The plane was completely burnt at second 47. I had to pull the other guy out with second degree burns. No other people on board, just the two of us. He survived and still thanks me today.
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career. To me important is to walk away alive.
Last edited by ME109G; 10-29-2016 at 11:28 AM.
10-29-2016, 11:17 AM
#27
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
Originally Posted by ME109G
Again if I take off out of more that 10000 feet runway and I get an engine fire after V1 my name is straight ahead. You guys do whatever you consider best for your career.
A CJ3 would be a much different animal than a widebody doing an assumed temp/derate takeoff.
10-29-2016, 12:50 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
Many variables that can create an outside the typical V1 cut or fire.
AA 181 at ORD.....the crew followed the procedure of pitching up to attain V2 after they "lost" the #1 engine.
The plane soon departed controlled flight and crashed.
You can't blame the crew cause they simply thought the #1 engine had failed, not departed the airplane and damaged hydraulic lines in the process.
You always look like the hero when you go of the procedure reservation and win. But you become the scapegoat when you lose or even break even.
In the end of it all, percentages lend to you not having a AA181 or UA292 type scenarios.
AA 181 at ORD.....the crew followed the procedure of pitching up to attain V2 after they "lost" the #1 engine.
The plane soon departed controlled flight and crashed.
You can't blame the crew cause they simply thought the #1 engine had failed, not departed the airplane and damaged hydraulic lines in the process.
You always look like the hero when you go of the procedure reservation and win. But you become the scapegoat when you lose or even break even.
In the end of it all, percentages lend to you not having a AA181 or UA292 type scenarios.
10-29-2016, 01:25 PM
#29
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,057
10-29-2016, 01:40 PM
#30
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,057
New to commercial aviation (but retired from the USAF). Both Emirates and now this AA have passengers grabbing personal gear from overheads and otherwise being stupid. I asked my FA what they are told to do if a pax is doing idiot things like this during an emergency. I was surprised that they were basically limited to verbal chastisement. And I don't recall much instruction on this in my own recent company ground school.
Contrast that to the few evacs I've done over my military career; mil crews and pax get it straight in their heads, get out!
I'm curious if there is anything more than verbal chastisement being discussed. Totally noobie speculation, but maybe having an emergency lock on overheads during critical phases of flight might be a thing.
idk... just glad no one was seriously injured or killed.
Contrast that to the few evacs I've done over my military career; mil crews and pax get it straight in their heads, get out!
I'm curious if there is anything more than verbal chastisement being discussed. Totally noobie speculation, but maybe having an emergency lock on overheads during critical phases of flight might be a thing.
idk... just glad no one was seriously injured or killed.
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