Adlerdriver

Must have been a barrel roll then.

Timbo

Nope, I just got the nose 15 degrees up before I started the roll, and let it come down as we rolled. About 1/2 a positive G all the way around. I didn't realize he had a cup of coffee in his hand when I started, or I would have told him to finish it first! But he asked me to show him what they were teaching me in the T38, so I did.

Watch Bob do it here, I don't consider this roll to be a Barrel Roll, but a simple aileron roll, notice how he starts nose up, and just lets it fall through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE

It could be considered a barrel roll I guess. In the T38 the aileron roll was just a flick of the wrist, while the barrel roll was a much more roll off, pull up and around type of thing. In the Turbo Commode I didn't pull it all the way around, I just used ailerons only, no back stick, and I started nose up because I didn't want to fly it upside down (or go zero G) knowing there aren't fuel sumps at the top of the tanks. For further reading, before attempting this on your next flight: http://www.amazon.com/Roll-Around-Po.../dp/0911721282

Adlerdriver

I've done plenty of aileron rolls and barrel rolls in the -38 and F-15.

If your buddy's coffee didn't spill then you did some form of barrel roll. A simple aileron roll is a roll on a point (the a/c nose should remain fixed or at least very close to the point) and it would be impossible to avoid spilling the liquid during the inverted portion of the roll since the pilot is inducing little to no positive G in order to roll on the point. The fact that you say you had a 1/2 G all the way around means it would have been impossible for your nose to stay on a point - therefore, no aileron roll.

I suggest you read Bob's book. He himself describes the ice tea maneuver as a barrel roll (pg 261). Clearly, the video you posted show his nose scribing a circle rather than staying on a single point which is exactly what a 1G barrel roll should look like.

Timbo

OK, you're right, I'm wrong.

BRUCE FANZ

Anyone have a POH for the Commander A\C Model?

From our King Air POH landing over a 50' obstacle with a tailwind.

10KT 2900'
20KT 3500'
30KT 4100'

So RWY 2/20, ILS RWY2 has no displaced threshold, the LDA is 5,600'.

The exchange I heard on the tape went something like this

PF- Tower We are inbound on the ILS2

Tower- Cleared to circle to land RWY20, Report left downwind.

PF- Has anyone been using RWY02?

Tower: Negative the winds are 190@ 17k

Sometimes we land downwind as the Circle minimums will not work.

I suspect the Commander can land with 20kts tailwind with TDA of 5,600.

I think landing downwind in a turbo prop can be the path of least resistance sometimes. I just TELL THEM what I will be doing.

Lab Rat

More money than brains in a lot of these cases.

EYBusdriver

Kind of sad. Reminds me of doctors and Bonanzas.

gdube94

Plane Crash (East Haven, CT) 8/9/13 - YouTube

Video taken by an off duty Bridgeport FF who has a side fire photography business. Later in the operation, with overhaul in progress. You can see the damage to the two houses, and can kinda catch a glimpse of the tail, which is down inverted in the back yard. the main part of the fuselage was in the house. Multiple units from East Haven, New Haven, and Branford FDs are operating.

At the three minute mark you can see a ladder to the second floor window of the house on the left, on the left side (what we call the "b" side of the house). I believe that is the window the trapped firefighter bailed out of after his unsuccessful search for the missing children.

usmc-sgt

FWIW (not much).

He was describing an aileron roll. An aileron roll uses no rudder..raise nose a few degrees and then max deflection as it comes around. Nose will fall through horizon.

A SLOW roll uses rudder as the airplane rolls around a point as the wings lose lift at 90 deg. A slow roll/aileron roll become the same thing in a high rate AC ie Pitts/edge/extra/mx/fighter. With a 720 deg/sec roll rate the nose won't come off its point at full deflection rudder or not.

Barrel roll..1g constant and looks different than both although closer to typical aileron roll.

Timbo

Thanks USMC-Sgt. I knew it was an aileron roll, but I don't think he's ever flown acro in a Pitts, so I was going to let it go. I'm guessing Hoover probably described it as a barrel roll in his book to dumb it down for the average readers, who don't know what an aileron is. If you watch his video I linked above, it's an aileron roll, but not sticking the nose to a fixed point. Kind of a sloppy aileron roll, or a very tight barrel roll. Call it a Hoover ice tea roll.

A true 'competition' type Barrel Roll is a much larger, longer, +1g maneuver, beginning with the pull to the right, 20 degrees off your aim point, pulling up, rolling, pulling all the way around, scribing a much larger circle with the nose, vs. just pulling the nose up, pause, full aileron to the left, recover....nose low if you don't hold it up while inverted.

That's why you want to start it by pulling the nose up, so when you finish, you're not as far nose down. But you also want to pause before you start your roll, or you will need a whole lot more rudder to get it around.

Like I said earlier, an aileron roll in a T38 (and most fighters) is a flick of the wrist, no flying skills required in a plane that can roll 720 degrees per second. No P factor or torque to fight against.

After a few years in a Pitts I flew an Extra, I was AMAZED at how much faster/easier it was to roll that thing!

But try it in a propeller driven twin, not quite the same! I once talked with a WWII P38 pilot who said that when they wanted to roll away from someone shooting at them, they'd chop power to the inside engine to get it to roll faster. Why didn't I think of that!