DeltaboundRedux

The same.

Aircraft certification regulations require an evacuation test. The 380 (Yes, I know the Haneda was a 350) was expected to have problems when normal people (not cherry picked athletic athletes) did the evac tests and would reasonably say "f-that" when bailing out of an upper deck ramp slide.

People get seriously injured and sometimes die from evac injuries just during certification.

This 350 evac was incredible.

DeltaboundRedux

Yikes.

Certain countries and cultures (or aircraft manufacturers) are rather inscrutable when it comes to investigations.

Wonder if/when we'll ever get a full acounting of this accident.

This is the best rundown I've seen on this particular incident. 18 minutes seems about right for that many passengers in the real world....and it's terrible.

Unless I'm mistaken (probably), certification requirements are 90 SECONDS.

Nice summary here (The Big-D LaGuardia is cited (5 minutes) and US Air 1549 (3 minutes) ) Interesting read. Cockpit/Cabin communications seem to be a factor.

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/FAA%20Oversight%20of%20Aircraft%20Evacuations%20Fi nal%20Report%20-%2009-16-20.pdf

rickair7777

Not the first time. If you're Po&Ho for more than a few seconds, better be listening to what's going on. If nobodies crossing downfield, better enquire as to the delay...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_An...unway_disaster

rickair7777

That's for certification, under ideal conditions: all exits work, pax know what's coming, and are not in fear for their lives... or their luggage.

In fairness, the standard seems to translate to excellent survivability in the real world.

rickair7777

We shall see. Looks like it was the fault of one or more government agencies, not the airline.

PNWFlyer

they probably were listening…. On UHF. Just my experience when flying in Japan in the late 90s. Most military traffic was on UHF.

rickair7777

In the US the default configuration seems to be that when the controller keys the mic it goes out on both UHF and VHF for that reason. That way at least one side of the conversation should be audible.

If Japan doesn't do that, I imagine they will be soon.

DeltaboundRedux

Good book on Amazon "The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes -- And Why" - Amanda Ripley

Good little read on "rat brain" psychology: Pilots and media are a bit dense when it comes to mocking passengers for grabbing bags off planes. People grab their carry on baggage for the exact same reason my dog takes a toy outside to "do his business" outside at night. The same reason people run back into burning homes to get their keys or wallets.

FA training/announcements during evacuations reflect these lessons. (Passengers EXTREMELY susceptible to commands, they WILL want to grab personal belongings if not otherwise instructed. Captains should read this: your announcements are ignored..until disaster strikes)

The link I referenced (which I see doesn't work, sorry, APC is going to the dogs) goes through the standards. Google Report No. AV2020045 "FAA's Process for Updating It's Aircraft Evacuation Standards Lacks Data Collection and Analysis on Current Evacuation Risks" if you're interested.

90 seconds for certification: the conditions are NOT ideal.

Passengers >= 40% female
>= over 50 years of age
>= 15% female AND over 50 years of age
3 lifesized dolls to be carried simulating live infants < 2 years of age
Low Level ambient lighting used
50% of the exits must be blocked (randomly)

Aircraft manufacturers can't jimmy the tests with olympic athletes and all exits available.


You are 100% correct in this though: these standards for certification listed above have worked very well in modern times.

Wonder what was going on with the Haneda fire response? WAY too long. "You only had one job" (at least they didn't run over an evacuating passenger)

JohnBurke

During a lot of years of firefighting, one of the more significant events I recall, and to be picked part, was a number of fatalities at a fire on Storm King Montain in Colorado (South Canyon fire). 14 firefighters were killed, several within a very short distance of a safe zone as they fought to outrun a rapidly advancing fire that flashed from one side of the canyon to the other. Those who died still had their tools. Tools are lifelines and firefighters don't drop them. Tens of thousans of pages have been written on South Canyon; Ive read most of it. One article I read in the mid 90's was by a senior firefighter, who addressed the criticism of firefighters who died with tools in their hands. It's been long opined that had they dropped the tools and run to the shelter deplyoyment zone, they'd have survived (some would have).

The individual who wrote that article recalled a moment on a fire when he was running in a hard sprint for a safe zone and he overtook a sawyer, who was running with his saw. Firefighter chainsaws are not your daddies saw; they're big. BIG. The senior firefighter slapped the rookie hard and screamed at him to run, and drop the saw, and when the rookie didn't, the senior firefighter ripped it from the rookies hands and drove the rookie on to the safe zone. What still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand is the senior firefighters assessment, that "when I got to the black (safe zone), I glanced down, and the saw was still in my hand."

There before the grace go I. Been there.

Those who run out of an airplane with their belonging are idiots, but human idiots, doing what humans do. Many won't even know they're doing it. Even under the best of circumstances, under stress, evacuating a fire, the monkey brain rules the day. Add volence, drama, excitement, and the four horses of the apocalypse, and many couldn't tell you their name. There's a reason we don't yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

A successful evacuation under actual fire conditions, not a certification run under controlled conditions, especially one with minimal injury and no evacuation deaths, is impressive by any measure.

SonicFlyer

Yep... SOP's where I am at require an inquiry after 30 seconds of being on the runway without instruction.