QX2059 Jumpseater tries to shutdown engines
10-23-2023, 08:16 PM
#201
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,031
I would think most special operators would have just killed him. To be honest I would have.
10-23-2023, 08:18 PM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 279
They're already maxed out. The last round of classes filled in 11 minutes after the first emails went out.
Again, what has twisting got to do with anything? Pull the fire handle, and fuel, hydraulic fluid, and bleed air is shut off, and the fire bottle is armed. Twist the handle, and the bottle is discharged. The discharge does nothing to prevent restarting the engine, nor does it lock the handle in place.
https://youtu.be/Upstt9EoP54?si=TnMpyXicbtWO5_nf
Again, what has twisting got to do with anything? Pull the fire handle, and fuel, hydraulic fluid, and bleed air is shut off, and the fire bottle is armed. Twist the handle, and the bottle is discharged. The discharge does nothing to prevent restarting the engine, nor does it lock the handle in place.
https://youtu.be/Upstt9EoP54?si=TnMpyXicbtWO5_nf
On a side note, got to listen to the ATC recordings. Captain declared a threat level 4 and made it known the guy was handcuffed in the back. So I guess it’s somewhat safe to discount any accidental incident or a miscommunication as some speculated.
10-23-2023, 08:21 PM
#203
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,031
Again, what has twisting got to do with anything? Pull the fire handle, and fuel, hydraulic fluid, and bleed air is shut off, and the fire bottle is armed. Twist the handle, and the bottle is discharged. The discharge does nothing to prevent restarting the engine, nor does it lock the handle in place.
https://youtu.be/Upstt9EoP54?si=TnMpyXicbtWO5_nf
https://youtu.be/Upstt9EoP54?si=TnMpyXicbtWO5_nf
Even with bottles blown, totally recoverable with sufficient time and altitude.
10-23-2023, 08:22 PM
#204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2021
Posts: 204
in the 175, you pull the T out, then you rotate 45° left or right to blow left or right bottle. Actually pulling the T handle takes a second, so if the crew was paying attention, they would know what he was doing before his hand even touched the handle. Also the JS is right between the crew’s arms so it’s not like he was able to do it without them seeing.
also who know the conversation they were having prior
10-23-2023, 08:23 PM
#205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,775
Pilot mass suicides have occurred previously (Germanwings, Silk Air, possibly MH370 and the Chinese air carrier I cannot think of), so mental health is definitely an issue. Banning the JS wouldn't be a step in the right direction but we're talking about the FAA here whose previous administrator has grounded a DL pilot due to bogus mental health issues while he was something higher up like the director of Ops.
10-23-2023, 08:27 PM
#206
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,261
Were you flying an Embraer? If not, then whatever you were told for the aircraft you were flying, is irrelevant. Systems knowledge is aircraft-specific.
You didn't see my previous reply to you on this same subject in this same thread, when you brought it up the first time?
10-23-2023, 08:27 PM
#207
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,031
Interesting. At my airline we got taught that a pull of the handle was something you could reset, a pull AND a twist and that was it for the engine. I guess no one really expects you to try and restart an engine after it’s been burning or expects someone to intentionally do what he tried to do. Learn something new every day.
I still wouldn't rule out accident, although it seems remote. Those handles are in a good place to serve as hand holds for someone in the jumpseat. Apparently FA's have actually done that before. But far fetched that a pilot would make that mistake. Unless pretty drunk.
10-23-2023, 08:33 PM
#208
Sweet Chin Music
Joined APC: Mar 2023
Position: AB FO
Posts: 253
Thankfully his actions were impulsive and not premeditated because I’m sure he could have found plenty of guidance on how to successfully and quickly kill both engines in flight.
I can tell you how I’d have done it in a split second, but I won’t because it’s a public forum. Mental health is a real issue in this country. I hope the feds don’t overreact to this isolated incident.
Last edited by RippinClapBombs; 10-23-2023 at 08:47 PM.
10-23-2023, 08:37 PM
#209
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,031
So white = mental health breakdown and brown = extremist/terrorist. I guess that's honest at least.
Unfortunately in this country we still perpetuate the brown Muslim boogeyman while the real threats (insurrectionists, mass shooters, anti-election, anti-government, anti-vaccine, etc.) have been, well, not people that look brown...
Unfortunately in this country we still perpetuate the brown Muslim boogeyman while the real threats (insurrectionists, mass shooters, anti-election, anti-government, anti-vaccine, etc.) have been, well, not people that look brown...
10-23-2023, 08:39 PM
#210
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,031
OK maybe I'm missing something, since I don't know how the fire suppression system works on a 175. On the mighty RJ, first you gotta kill the engine(s) by pressing the fire button. Then you have to separately trigger the bottles with a separate button.
Simply pressing the fire button (or on the 175, pulling the handles) will shut down the engine(s), but they can then be restarted. (Again, I'm not aware if the 175's handles work to both shut down the engine and blow the bottles at the same time, or if it's a 2-step procedure like in the RJ.) I would assume (this isn't a topic that was really covered during any training I've ever been through) that if you blow a bottle into each engine, the odds of a restart are much lower. But to do that, at least in the RJ, you've got to activate more than one switch / lever/ etc.
He did this at cruise altitude, I believe. My point simply is, if you're going to try to bring down a turbine aircraft, pulling the fire handles has got to be one of the least effective ways to do that. Simply because at cruise altitude there is *plenty* of altitude and time for a restart. Obviously this dude wasn't acting rationally. Great job to the Horizon crew who managed to get him out of the flight deck without losing one or both engines. I can't even imagine what that must be like, as one of the flying pilots...
Simply pressing the fire button (or on the 175, pulling the handles) will shut down the engine(s), but they can then be restarted. (Again, I'm not aware if the 175's handles work to both shut down the engine and blow the bottles at the same time, or if it's a 2-step procedure like in the RJ.) I would assume (this isn't a topic that was really covered during any training I've ever been through) that if you blow a bottle into each engine, the odds of a restart are much lower. But to do that, at least in the RJ, you've got to activate more than one switch / lever/ etc.
He did this at cruise altitude, I believe. My point simply is, if you're going to try to bring down a turbine aircraft, pulling the fire handles has got to be one of the least effective ways to do that. Simply because at cruise altitude there is *plenty* of altitude and time for a restart. Obviously this dude wasn't acting rationally. Great job to the Horizon crew who managed to get him out of the flight deck without losing one or both engines. I can't even imagine what that must be like, as one of the flying pilots...
Bottles have nothing to do with engine relight either way. All you need is to push the handle back in, and some time and altitude.
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