QX2059 Jumpseater tries to shutdown engines
10-23-2023, 04:08 PM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 367
I’m trying to figure out how they got him out of the cockpit. It’s small and cramped and the jumpseat blocks the doorway completely. Unless he was being compliant or they had a bunch of people dragging him over the top of the seat I have no idea how they managed that part.
10-23-2023, 04:31 PM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,954
Except that would assume that the relapse rate in those diagnosed and treated was lower than the primary rate in those who had not already sustained an event. In fact, even the efficacy of antidepressants is sufficiently in question that long term use is pretty “iffy” because of statistical issues with their efficacy studies:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2045125320921694
so the *should* have helped certainly deserves the asterisks you bracketed it with.
And inherent in your statement that he woukd have been under significant scrutiny is the assumption that such scrutiny would have done any good. That too is a dicey assumption. The criteria for diagnosis of depression is almost exclusively self-reported:
https://www.mdcalc.com/calc/10195/ds...ssive-disorder
What isn’t self reported is pretty nonspecific, ie., weight gain OR loss, fatigue, etc. There simply is no litmus test to detect depression in someone sufficiently motivated (and a salary of $300k+ a year can certainly be a motivator) to conceal it. And while the exact testing is now firewall concealed by the FAA aeromedical guys,
https://ibb.co/vqhSNR6]
The vast majority of the objective tests are simply cognitive function tests adjusted to pilot norms, the rest largely being self reporting of symptoms which a quick google search would make it easy for someone to negatively malinger - that is, report themselves healthier than they are.
And a third of a million dollars a year (including 401k DC) is a h€|| of an incentive to do that search and give the *correct* self reported symptoms or lack of same.
And while, yeah, cognitive dysfunction MIGHT give the person away and that may in and of itself be adequate reason to ground someone the absence of cognitive dysfunction provides no guarantees that the person isn’t depressed and/or isn’t malingering.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2045125320921694
so the *should* have helped certainly deserves the asterisks you bracketed it with.
And inherent in your statement that he woukd have been under significant scrutiny is the assumption that such scrutiny would have done any good. That too is a dicey assumption. The criteria for diagnosis of depression is almost exclusively self-reported:
https://www.mdcalc.com/calc/10195/ds...ssive-disorder
What isn’t self reported is pretty nonspecific, ie., weight gain OR loss, fatigue, etc. There simply is no litmus test to detect depression in someone sufficiently motivated (and a salary of $300k+ a year can certainly be a motivator) to conceal it. And while the exact testing is now firewall concealed by the FAA aeromedical guys,
https://ibb.co/vqhSNR6]
The vast majority of the objective tests are simply cognitive function tests adjusted to pilot norms, the rest largely being self reporting of symptoms which a quick google search would make it easy for someone to negatively malinger - that is, report themselves healthier than they are.
And a third of a million dollars a year (including 401k DC) is a h€|| of an incentive to do that search and give the *correct* self reported symptoms or lack of same.
And while, yeah, cognitive dysfunction MIGHT give the person away and that may in and of itself be adequate reason to ground someone the absence of cognitive dysfunction provides no guarantees that the person isn’t depressed and/or isn’t malingering.
I guarantee that you have flown with many undiagnosed, untreated, but definitely depressed pilots over your career. Something like 20-30% of Americans meet the criteria for some kind of depressive disorder, there is no way pilots as a whole beat the statistical average by that much.
10-23-2023, 04:34 PM
#174
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 76
I mean , as disturbing as it is…..if you were legitimately trying to make the airplane crash, why would you do it at cruise and not at a lower altitude? Full sympathy for someone going through mental health issues in this industry. Absolutely zero sympathy for apparently trying to kill innocent people because of it.
10-23-2023, 04:42 PM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: Retired NJA & AA
Posts: 2,006
Some rumors going around that the jumpseater was intoxicated. Possible a combination of that and some mental instability.
Does anyone remember what caused the JetBlue Captain to be locked out of the cockpit by the F/O? I know he was acting very strangely but never heard a cause.
Does anyone remember what caused the JetBlue Captain to be locked out of the cockpit by the F/O? I know he was acting very strangely but never heard a cause.
10-23-2023, 04:50 PM
#176
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,261
Why? Beyond discharging a bottle, what's different? Initial action with fuel shutoff, etc, takes place with the fire handle pull. Fuel is shut off, hydraulic is shut off, and bleed is shut off. The fire bottle is armed. Rotate the handle to discharge the bottle. The bottle discharges inside the nacelle. Bottle discharge does not cause a flame-out (pulling the handle does that), nor does it put fire agent through the engine (only outside of it). Pull the handle, push it back. Pull and rotate the handle, push it back up.
10-23-2023, 04:58 PM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Guppy Gear Slinger
Posts: 1,990
OK maybe I'm missing something, since I don't know how the fire suppression system works on a 175. On the mighty RJ, first you gotta kill the engine(s) by pressing the fire button. Then you have to separately trigger the bottles with a separate button.
Simply pressing the fire button (or on the 175, pulling the handles) will shut down the engine(s), but they can then be restarted. (Again, I'm not aware if the 175's handles work to both shut down the engine and blow the bottles at the same time, or if it's a 2-step procedure like in the RJ.) I would assume (this isn't a topic that was really covered during any training I've ever been through) that if you blow a bottle into each engine, the odds of a restart are much lower. But to do that, at least in the RJ, you've got to activate more than one switch / lever/ etc.
He did this at cruise altitude, I believe. My point simply is, if you're going to try to bring down a turbine aircraft, pulling the fire handles has got to be one of the least effective ways to do that. Simply because at cruise altitude there is *plenty* of altitude and time for a restart. Obviously this dude wasn't acting rationally. Great job to the Horizon crew who managed to get him out of the flight deck without losing one or both engines. I can't even imagine what that must be like, as one of the flying pilots...
Simply pressing the fire button (or on the 175, pulling the handles) will shut down the engine(s), but they can then be restarted. (Again, I'm not aware if the 175's handles work to both shut down the engine and blow the bottles at the same time, or if it's a 2-step procedure like in the RJ.) I would assume (this isn't a topic that was really covered during any training I've ever been through) that if you blow a bottle into each engine, the odds of a restart are much lower. But to do that, at least in the RJ, you've got to activate more than one switch / lever/ etc.
He did this at cruise altitude, I believe. My point simply is, if you're going to try to bring down a turbine aircraft, pulling the fire handles has got to be one of the least effective ways to do that. Simply because at cruise altitude there is *plenty* of altitude and time for a restart. Obviously this dude wasn't acting rationally. Great job to the Horizon crew who managed to get him out of the flight deck without losing one or both engines. I can't even imagine what that must be like, as one of the flying pilots...
10-23-2023, 05:04 PM
#178
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,114
Depression alone shouldn’t be disqualifying. There is a massive difference on that spectrum between “wow life is pretty grey and I struggle to find meaning but I’m otherwise functional” and “those fire handles look tempting”.
I guarantee that you have flown with many undiagnosed, untreated, but definitely depressed pilots over your career. Something like 20-30% of Americans meet the criteria for some kind of depressive disorder, there is no way pilots as a whole beat the statistical average by that much.
I guarantee that you have flown with many undiagnosed, untreated, but definitely depressed pilots over your career. Something like 20-30% of Americans meet the criteria for some kind of depressive disorder, there is no way pilots as a whole beat the statistical average by that much.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9616454/
Since generally speaking population norms describe 95% as within normal limits and 5% as outside of normal limits, this is a statistically highly improbable finding. Being in the rowdier 50% of seventh grade males doesn't’ make you abnormal, just not terribly well behaved.
Similarly, we have over many decades redefined “depression”
Originally there were two types of ‘depression’ described, exogenous and endogenous. Exogenous meant you had a cause. Your dog died or your kid died or your spouse died or you were going through a divorce. You were going through a $hitty period in your life and you were reacting to it just like anyone else would. That was then considered something called an acute situational reaction or if delayed, an adjustment disorder, not depression. Unlike endogenous depression, which was a symptomatic depression despite the absence of identifiable causes, those didn’t get treated with antidepressants and generally resolved without drugs.
But along came Prozac and other money makers for the pharmaceutical industry and in a turnabout no less self serving and egregious than pushing OxyContin and ADHD meds, the pharmaceutical industry has pushed for all types of depression to be treated with drugs. And like the poor kids that were put on ADHD meds for basically being boys in middle school, the FAA aeromedical dudes and dudettes now have to cope with a lot of people with a disqualifying defect that may or may not have ever been warranted.
Last edited by Excargodog; 10-23-2023 at 05:15 PM.
10-23-2023, 05:14 PM
#179
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 73
This is now international news. Prime time Japanese news network,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2eB2yPIS74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2eB2yPIS74
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