SFO Near Miss 28R
07-12-2017, 02:59 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
07-12-2017, 05:21 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: A319/320 Right Side
Posts: 97
On the FMS bridge visual in the Airbus the FD will guide you all the way in on profile. No need to have the ILS up. IMO having the PM go heads down over the bridge and load up the ILS 28R is not all that safe, seeing as how they should be monitoring. But it could be done I guess. Not SOP at my airline.
07-13-2017, 01:31 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,118
I guess you could kinda do it this way but it wouldn't be SOP I think anywhere. I'm not sure what the FD would do if you only switched one side that low on the approach. You could put the raw data ILS into the MFD but you'd lose a lot of situational awareness. I think you're better off zooming in the MFD all the way and making sure it's over the line, especially with someone on the parallel.
I'm sure someone who's flown an Airbus more or tried something like this in the past could shed more light.
I'm sure someone who's flown an Airbus more or tried something like this in the past could shed more light.
On the FMS bridge visual in the Airbus the FD will guide you all the way in on profile. No need to have the ILS up. IMO having the PM go heads down over the bridge and load up the ILS 28R is not all that safe, seeing as how they should be monitoring. But it could be done I guess. Not SOP at my airline.
It's honestly blowing my mind that professional airline pilots are not using some sort of navigational backup to fly an approach into an airport that has super close parallel runways, especially at night.
07-13-2017, 04:43 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: A319/320 Right Side
Posts: 97
Ok I see what your saying.. sorry. I guess you could "hard tune" the ILS in the RAD NAV page in the FMC. However, both pilots can't have both RNAV vertical guidance and the ILS displayed on the A319/320/321 series. You could have one on the RNAV and one on the hard tunes ILS. Its honestly something we just don't do on this approach because after all it is a visual approach. You usually have the runway in sight prior to the bridge. But if you were unfamiliar you would just keep following the FD's in until you know you had in sight. ( i.e. 500 ft on final)
Edit- it is a RNAV visual - so you can use the guidance from the FD's. No real need for a ILS backup as the RNAV lines you perfect for 28R after the bridge
Edit- it is a RNAV visual - so you can use the guidance from the FD's. No real need for a ILS backup as the RNAV lines you perfect for 28R after the bridge
07-13-2017, 05:47 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
I am surprised that you can visually confuse a Taxiway with a RUNWAY when the runway has ALSF-2 approach lighting system. Not only that the markings on a precision runway are extensive. I could see this error going into a smaller field with non precision runway and even then in visual conditions tough to comprehend. This is a good reminder to keep our basic skills sharp. I will wait too see what the official investigation has to say but doesn't look good.
07-13-2017, 06:48 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: C-172 PPL
Posts: 176
They knew it wasn't right.
All of that is great.
But I would add, if things look weird or the hairs on the back of your neck start to tingle, it is time to take a step back.
Listening to the radio calls, the Air Canada queries the tower about "lights on the runway" and asking to confirm landing clearance. It seems something isn't adding up to him.
At that point, it really doesn't matter who has erred. Maybe ground is crossing someone without regard to landing traffic, or a ground vehicle is lost, or we are lined up with the taxiway, it doesn't really matter because they all end in a bad way.
The point is when one gets that "this just don't feel right!" feeling, get to a safe place (in this case, go around) and do a reset. Don't continue when your gut says 'no'.
But I would add, if things look weird or the hairs on the back of your neck start to tingle, it is time to take a step back.
Listening to the radio calls, the Air Canada queries the tower about "lights on the runway" and asking to confirm landing clearance. It seems something isn't adding up to him.
At that point, it really doesn't matter who has erred. Maybe ground is crossing someone without regard to landing traffic, or a ground vehicle is lost, or we are lined up with the taxiway, it doesn't really matter because they all end in a bad way.
The point is when one gets that "this just don't feel right!" feeling, get to a safe place (in this case, go around) and do a reset. Don't continue when your gut says 'no'.
100% This. Absolutely.
The pilot clearly saw that something wasn't right, and asked for clarification.
The pilot should have gone around on his own accord until the situation was clearer.
The controller should have picked up on the pilot's uncertainty in the radio call, and double-checked everything.
The controller likely would've been able to recognize the bad lineup and put it together with the strange radio call, then called for a go-around sooner.
Basically, these guys knew something was wrong, but failed to actually process it and act on it.
07-17-2017, 02:28 PM
#17
FO
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: B777
Posts: 181
We have the option of including navigation overlays from different sources simultaneously with Proline 21. This allows us to have both active courses in Green from, say, GPS guidance & ground based course depictions as well; when we are in range of ground based facilities: ILS, LOC, LDA, SDF; depicted in blue....My own eyes have fooled me enough over the years to incorporate alternative positional awareness tools even on the clearest nights.
07-18-2017, 07:58 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 131
More details are out. These guys flew over the top of two airplanes and below 100 (83?) feet. The height of a 787...55' 10".
28' from striking the 787 tail.
They were about 1-2 seconds..literally... from one of the worst aviation disasters in history.
Unbelievable.
28' from striking the 787 tail.
They were about 1-2 seconds..literally... from one of the worst aviation disasters in history.
Unbelievable.
07-18-2017, 08:21 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Mar 2016
Position: Here and there
Posts: 1,906
Wow...I was just talking to my captain about this last night wondering how close they got. Knowing these details it's a lot more serious than we realized.
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07-18-2017, 08:48 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
Why does the PM need to go heads down to load it up? Can't the ILS be preselected in a nav radio and then simply switch the nav source to it when crossing the bridge?
It's honestly blowing my mind that professional airline pilots are not using some sort of navigational backup to fly an approach into an airport that has super close parallel runways, especially at night.
It's honestly blowing my mind that professional airline pilots are not using some sort of navigational backup to fly an approach into an airport that has super close parallel runways, especially at night.
Or is it like a STAR that you could tie (or leave a discon after) to the standard ILS to the runway?
Either way, a few key strokes (less than 6, I'm guessing) to provide a solid back up to a visual, especially at night is just good head work, IMO. Is that really going to preclude the PM from continuing to "M" way out over the bridge? Yes, it is "after all a visual" but that doesn't mean you have to ignore available tools and rely on only eyeballs and PAPIs on principle.
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