unclenobby

Not quite true. An employer cannot give a "negative" reference (think of the liability involved). All they are required to do is confirm dates of employment. Most of the time references from previous employers are considered personal references (the manager you worked for as an example - their personal opinion not that of the company). Most large corporations have an automated system that confirms employment dates and that's it. No personal interaction with anyone from HR.

Let's face it all the department of (sub)human resources know about you is your employee #, DOH, pay rate and so on.

jrav8er

Not True. Once you sign that freedom information act form and consent you have given the hiring air carrier cart Blanche. Also remember the hold harmless agreement they have you sign.

Once they have that their are no laws that prevent an employer from asking Anything they want from your previous employer. There are no federal labor laws that prevent this. Since you signed a hold harmless agreement then they are protected in the event you decide to sue for defamation of character. Both your new employer and the former employer are protected. In a normal reference check any employer on the planet does this. Questions like the following are asked. Guaranteed.

Are you able to enthusiastically recommend this person?

"I'm really not supposed to say anything."
Is this person eligible for re-hire within your organization?

"I wouldn't know."
Could you fully describe the circumstances and reason for the separation?

"According to our agreement it was a mutual separation."
Could you describe any strengths and / or weaknesses of this individual?

"I'd rather not comment."
Could you suggest anyone else that I should speak to regarding this individual?

"You probably should speak with the VP of HR. He's handling this."

So on and so fourth. I am writing this to caution the original poster that indeed it can and most certainly will happen. Once you new employer hears you are not eligible for rehire then they raise an eyebrow. Trust me it happens. I'm not here to get into a ****ing match on what laws etc and who is right or wrong. This is common sense stuff here. I'm just trying to help someone out here on this forum protect his fragile pilot record and career history. Why? because I was in the almost the exact situation and required an aviation attorney to clear up bull**** that cost me 2 very lucrative job offers. If he wants guidance then contact these people

Reference Checking Services

JamesNoBrakes

Where has anyone signed a FOIA related to a private entity? FOIA is used for government records.

You are right that there may be no federal laws prohibiting former employers for releasing records related to termination, but it has nothing to do with FOIA. If an employer is supplying records in violation of PRIA, you have a case to sue them.

jrav8er

Gentlemen, JamesNoBrakes is correct, the FOIA, is just for the govt side of the records request and PRIA is for the pilot training records and disciplinary actions that relate to performance as a pilot And disciplinary actions that directly relate to the termination/resignation of that pilot. But I would not want to place a wager on weather or not that employer will attempt to use the release of liability in their favor. I forget who said it, we are dealing with "(non) human Relations". These HR people are not aviators or aviation inclined at all. Heck H.S.H at RAH was HR of who was it Payless shoes? How does that relate to hiring pilots. Nothing against H.S.H but look at JetBlue. The HR dept on he pilot side is nothing but pilots. Pilots hiring pilots the way it should be. Pilots in HR know and understand PRIA, FOIA, Privacy act, FAA regs etc. it's in their blood.

Typically in the regional world HR personnel are not pilots. When a PRIA request is made the first person to get it is HR, they request your pilot records from the aviation department within that company where your pilot records are maintained separately from HR records. Those records get sent to HR, HR joins your HR records with your pilot records and then sends them in one email or envelope. They are not supposed to do that but it happens. AHoles.

Again Jamesnobrakes is correct about FOIA, PRIA etc. in a perfect world there should be no problem. But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where the legal pendulum swings between apathy and paranoia. And that pendulum seems to be stuck on paranoia, companies are afraid of liability, They weigh their liability risks as to what is more damaging to their own image in the public eye. They would much rather take the risk of liability of being sued by one former employee for sending something they shouldn't rather than facing liability for not sending something and have the media jump all up in their face if that former pilot goes on to another carrier and has an accident. It's cheaper to just send everything they got on you and risk being sued by you vs being sued by hundreds of family's in a federal case if you go on and maybe have an accident. They are scared s-hi-tless of the Colgan results. Airlines have legal teams to protect them and very deep pockets. If you sue them, even if you have a slam dunk case against them, they will still do everything they can to bleed you of every penny you have to spend on litigation plus drag your name publicly through the mud along the process, it becomes public record and you are now what is known as a "Whistleblower". They may eventually cave in and settle. But I hope that settlement is a big one because Good luck getting a flying job after that. They know this and use it to their advantage.

I apologize that I am so passionate about this. It is because I got burned before and spent a lot of money and over 4 years to get a overturned decision removed from my record. Without involving litigation. It forced me to dig very deep into the PRIA act FOIA, Privacy act The GAO report on pria etc.I became somewhat of a S--thouse lawyer SME on it. I got a disciplinary action for something that was initially perceived as me doing something wrong but later determined by the DO that what I did was well within the scope of the policies and procedures and in the best interests of the company. The DA was thus overturned. But a high personnel turnover rate in the HR dept over the years and somehow that overturned disciplinary action was sitting in someone's desk mysteriously made it back into my record. I'd venture to guess the person who initiated it had their D--K slapped And made it a personal vendetta. Since it was overturned in essence I never received a disciplinary action and it's not required to be disclosed. I didn't disclose it there was no reason to. When it showed its ugly face it looked really bad and I lost 2 jobs because of it.

I believe in paying it forward. I try my best to educate as many pilots on how delicate our pilot records are and what they need to do to guard them with your life. I hate to see other pilots in the same predicament over frivolous BS


I wish JamesNoBrakes and I had law degrees I think we would be very successful in Aviation law. Hope to get to fly with you someday.

supercub70

Jrav8r...thanks for all the good gouge. I hope to never need it but one never knows and there seems to be a profession wide misunderstanding surrounding PRIA.

JamesNoBrakes

Wow, quite the hell to go through, definitely worth fighting for.

I agree that pilots need to be a lot more educated on this and PRIA. It's sort of glossed over in groundschool, but few really know the workings and implications. A good start is to get your file from OKC and read the entire AC a few times.

Silverwings

Interesting, in section 1-1 "Actions To Be Reported By PRIA" it says:
"...only fully adjudicated and closed enforcement cases are required to be, and in fact, are reported by PRIA for the 5-year period preceding the date on the application"

I thought that the 5 year period thing had been removed and that everything on your record would be disclosed now not matter how old it was.
Does this mean there's no need to disclose things that happened more than 5 years ago???