nbecca

From the outside, it appears NO ONE is doing any negotiating! I’ve heard tell that IBT National is even getting tired of 357’s antics (that’s “shenanigans” for those native RAH’ers).

What has National done for you? Promised strike funds when you strike in 2020 or something? Which is a larger number (I know it varies based on longevity), unemployment or the money National has allocated for each 357 pilot in the event of a strike?

With 357 doing such an abysmal job at “negotiations”, why not bring in Professional Negotiators from National? They do have to have some actual Negotiators, don’t they? Not just pilots with a desire to play Negotiators and can’t figure out why what they’re doing isn’t working.

Um, I think that’s going better than you might think.

BB is no longer the driving force in our search for PE or other financing, our CEO is – and he knows what he’s doing.

The further we get from RAH, the more we return to a rational mainline attitude and business model.

Marketing is starting to do Big Boy things, instead of the CPA model of playing mainline. Crew Scheduling is treating our pilots as humans instead of like commuter pilots. Our lines are, ever so slowly, improving, we just have to get out from under the mindset that exists at RAH, on both the pilot side and the Management side.

We’re still here today.

Primarily because, at the end of the day, both Labor and Management recognized that we would have to work together towards the success of the Company. Labor worked with Management to make our company successful.

We could have/should have been out of business any number of times, but we kept working as a team towards our goal.

We’ve had many arguments and disagreements with Management along the way, but we’ve always been able to keep the big picture in focus and resolve those issues, not always to the satisfaction of Labor, or of Management or of both.

We’ve negotiated two contracts, without angst and animosity and did so in a few months each time vs many years.

We’ve given concessions, once to prevent furloughs and keep all pilots on the property after 9/11, once in lieu of facing an 1113 in BK and once to work with RAH Management. Never, in any of our concessions, have we given up a single work rule.

We started with five airplanes that were older than 90% of the RAH seniority list, we’ve fought off UAL, NWA, SWA (remains to be seen) made it through BK and will eventually make it out from under a nasty SLI and hostile takeover by an ineffective union.

We make decent money and have a generally good QOL.

Again, want to compare the CHQ and Frontier CBA’s?

We haven’t been in an infantile 5-year battle with the Company in which the Union won’t meet with the Company, the Union puts up goofy websites, and the Union tells every pilot to “Fly Safe” in every paragraph of their news releases.

After the hostile takeover by IBT, many RAH pilots told us, “Welcome, it’ll be great to have you join our fight against Management.”

That’s not what we do, we meet, discuss, debate and come up with an agreement. It seems a bit more grown up than the IBT (or at least the 357) method of interaction with Management.

So, keep doing what you’re doing, it’s going so well for you, and let us know how it turns out…

I couldn’t agree more with your assessment of Craig.

Craig's primary motivation is to get the MEA (ALPA) CBA recognized, through arbitration, paid for by the IBT (that doesn't seem like a conflict of interest?) and help as many MEA pilots get current and get out. I'm sure you've seen the exceptionally short period of time the MEA guys stay at RAH after they're current.

It’s a shame he was the only pilot out of 2,500 that was willing to accept the assignment. Maybe next time one of the thousands will find the fortitude to step up and lead for the betterment of the entire RAH (sans MEA) group.

On a side note, does the 357 membership really think it's worth it to fly all 7 (6) EBoard members to DEN once a month for a 20 minute meeting with F9 Management?

SeaRider

You do not know enough about our situation to be spewing this garbage.

I'm as critical of the IBT and current E-board as anybody, but you group of F9ers that think we created this relationship with management are completely ignorant. Step of your high horse and be thankful for the way your negotiations have gone thus far.

We could have a great relationship with management if we were willing to take a 1% raise with no work rule improvements. Is that what you would do? If we did, you'd curse us for being bottom feeders. Management is following the union busting rules and fighting to the point of strike in order to ride out the cheap labor as long as possible, probably at the command of the board of directors. That's the standard playbook for these people.

I wish we were like a SkyWest...where there generally isn't a need for a union and our rates and work rules are kept highly competitive by a management group that somewhat cares, or at least pretends to. That's just not who were dealing with in BB and WH.
You guys could have helped us - used your 'expertise' to join and makes things better. I wish you had wanted to...we could have ousted the IBT. But, you chose the opposite route and want to simply distance yourselves from us. Fine then, butt out. We can agree the IBT leaves much to be desired, but for the rest of our specific situation, you are fully ignorant.

And go ahead and keep telling yourself that your company was not indirectly saved by us. Our cheap and exploited labor puts significant funds into RAH's accounts. Funds from those accounts were used to subsidize F9 losses for quite some time. F9's recent 'profitability' has been called in to question as being a result of creative accounting. For the sake of the decent people that work on the green team, I hope F9 is profitable and will survive alone. I'm not asking for a 'thank you'...it's management's decisions just like everything else we argue about, but don't be delusional about how you've been able to keep your job. I'm sorry if that's a blow to your ego. Most over here wish our management never bought your airline or MEA. Yes, that would have meant more time on furlough for me, but I'd happily take that in retrospect. If management had just stuck to FFD flying, which provides more forgiveness for their mediocrity, we would have been much better off.

Again, you think you know it all with your play nice theory. We tried it - it didn't work. We all wish it had, but if we want a contract that is considered even industry competitive, we are in for a fight.

-SR

5ontheglide

Your in business today and not stapled to SWA because of $200 million of rah money. PERIOD

Karma

Are you serious? You get bailed out by RAH and the thanks you give is denial? That is really sad. Give credit where credit is due. Do you have any idea where you would be today if RAH didn't take you out of the slums. You should be grateful and salute every RAH pilot you see in the terminal to show respect for giving up all their gains to cover your loses.

Bolo

You are definitely incorrect on the "losing money part". We are making money. BB is not making the deals any longer. Dave Siegle is the one who is now finding the investor, which he was VERY confident by saying in our last town hall meeting with our pilots that someone is in the wing to invest.
I would also disagree with you that "it is a good sign for things to come".

Bolo

Do you know where 1500 of your pilots would have been without F9 as well? It goes both ways on that one. Those were the numbers that were given from BB in one of his letters!

nbecca

To use your words, you do not know enough about our situation to judge what we know, what is logically deducible and what our experiences – prior to RAH and with RAH – allows us to understand about your situation.

You guys rip the IBT and the EBoard, right up until someone else rips the IBT and/or the EBoard, then you defend it with your last breath. It’s like, I can say my Brother is stupid and lazy, but if you say it, I’ll defend him.

The state of your relationship with Management started somewhere.

Was it the typical IBT mindset as stated at a membership meeting by the head of International Affairs, “We want the CEO’s to wake up every morning and wonder what the IBT is going to do to me today.” (That’s on tape)

Was it your NC Chair claiming he had an affair with WH’s secretary to gain additional access? (Several witnesses)

Was it your NC Chair mocking BB’s religion? That’s when BB said he would never meet with the IBT again.

Was it 747’s President, Gene Sowell, who was more concerned with lining his own pocket than representing the pilots effectively?

Was it all BB & WH & RH?

Was it several hundred pilots that hired on with 250-500 hours believing they were in for a 6-month upgrade, only to be stuck at 36.62 for eternity AND no turbine PIC time so they could move on?

Was it naïve, delusional pilots that actually thought they would make a CAREER of RAH and found out the Regionals aren’t so great?

In the end, it doesn’t matter how and when the relationship soured, you should have elected Leaders that could re-engage with Management. You can’t fix their (Management’s) side, but you could have worked on improving your side.

Instead, you kept electing, and ultimately appointing, Union leadership whose only interest was to continue to degrade the relationship. That’s on you.

I am thankful for our relationship with Management. It didn’t happen in a vacuum or all by itself.

BB came over to a Frontier Pilot’s (no affiliation with FAPA) BBQ and said, “I’ve never even been invited to an IBT function.”

We haven’t had to negotiate for anything since the IBT took us over, we would rather stay exactly status quo than give the IBT a shot at jacking up our CBA or destroying another Labor/Management relationship.

All of our negotiations and LOA’s occurred prior to the IBT taking us over.

The IBT is actively pursuing grievances and LOA’s that no Frontier pilot supports (190’s, EFB’s, etc.) and suing us, but that’s just so they can say they’re doing something – again whether we want it or not.

The seven member EBoard was in DEN (Flight Pay Loss, Hotels, Meals, etc. at the cost of the membership. They were speaking with Management about inconsequential issues and Craig started shaking out of anger. We’ll pass on that type of leadership.

I support a raise for your FO’s, they REALLY NEED it and deserve it, too bad the union refused to participate in THAT LOA.

Your Captains are in the ballpark of Industry Standards, they don’t deserve a raise.

You need work rules across all three certificates.

Moreover, what did you or do you expect from a Regional airline? Their business model is based on low costs (cheap labor), high turnover (who thought there would be lifers), there was never a thought given to pilots actually thinking they would make a CAREER at RAH, or any Regional.

I don’t think of you guys as “bottom feeders”, you just got stuck by a bad time in the industry, it happens.

We were forced into joining the IBT, it was a very contentious time. We met with National and proposed an Atlas/Polar arrangement. We offered RPC. We asked for our own Local. National agreed to parts of each in the first meeting, then with no warning or explanation canceled the second meeting. It was, “Our way or the Highway” except there was no highway.

This was right after the SLI, where the people that IBT sent to “negotiate”, “mediate” and arbitrate were the worst examples of the RAH pilot group.

It was a hostile takeover, IBT demanded Frontier disband their Merger Committee (while funding MEA’s), demanded our money, took our contractual Flight Pay Loss, barred our pilots from any level of participation – even though there is NO written policy or requirement to be a member to participate in Committee work.

You’re surprised no Frontier pilot wanted anything to do with the crooks that ran the Trusteeship?

If you truly believe “we” could have banded together and ousted the IBT, you’re nuts.

And, as you can see, we are not exactly ignorant of the past or of your current situation.

I appreciate what RAH has done for Frontier and Thank You for your efforts, not that you had much of a choice, and how or why Frontier is alive today doesn’t affect my ego in the least. I’m just happy to be in business.

I’m going to ponder whose “mediocrity” we’re talking about, I’m pretty sure you mean Management, but maybe you’re alluding to the IBT, EBoard and NC as well.

nbecca

$150,000,000 not $200,000,000 in "house money."

nbecca

Denial, that's rich from a 357 pilot. How's the new CBA coming? I thought you'd be picketing by Christmas of 2011 or was it 2010?

RAH saved Frontier's butt. Thank you.

RAH pilots had nothing to do with it, it wasn't put to a vote and many RAH'ers benefited as well. They could have benefited more if they knew how to work and play well with others.

I have RAH friends, they don't require a salute, I doubt I'm going to start it in the terminal.

Saabs

^^

Nomination for tool of the day!!