Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1189998)

In order again, due to whatever reasons, BK rates, economic industry depression rates...... US Airways, United, Virgin America/Spirit, JetBlue, Delta.

Where is the defined cut off for "one of the lowest paying majors" ??? When you only have 6 big airlines that operate the 320, where do you draw the line and say "yes, this is one of the lowest paying majors." According to your logic, anyone below Delta or Jetblue is "the lowest paying major."

Don't get me wrong, VA isn't perfect, and could use an improvement in pay and QOL package. But to smear a pilot as going from one lowest paid regional to a lowest paid major is entirely inaccurate as you try and paint it.

Originally Posted by MunkyButtr (Post 1189800)

Well, in the longest post in APC history ShyGuy finally admitted who he is. So, ShyGuy, take it to the VA threads and be gone once and for all. I'm still trying to figure out how a thread about Q400s turned into you defending VA to the death.

Originally Posted by etflies (Post 1189825)

So, what's the latest on the Qs at RAH?

Originally Posted by Slats (Post 1189320)

Where are you going to end up when the dust gets kicked up?

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1189681)

Now RAH still operates a few Q400's under the Frontier banner, correct? So RAH has a training program in place? Manuals, ops specs, etc? Tht would make it easier to strt operating these Q400's for UAL.

Originally Posted by Bryan Bedford

will we expand our United Expressservice to DEN, EWR and IAD

Originally Posted by MunkyButtr (Post 1190003)

I'm just trying to clear up your picaso. You say this industry needs an overhaul, but you're not willing to practice what you preach.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1190518)

I'm not sure I said that. An overhaul? What do you mean? I never used the words 'overhaul.' And I practice what I preach. 9E was screwing its employee groups, and I did what was the only logical choice: say no, and get out.


Thanks for the first sentence. You can PM me for any questions if you're interested.

As for the second part, I didn't really have a choice. Not sure when you were hired, but I was a 2007 hire at original 9E which put me around 1910 when I left on the overall list. Even before the parking of the props and the ATL -900s, our integration screwed 9E pilots hired in 2007. The movement and was all backwards (downgrades for 9E) while Colgan/Mesaba took 9E captain spots. Whatever, it happened, nothing can change that. But that right there was enough to give me the incentive to try and leave. Now the BK and the fleet cuts means 9E is losing 74 airplanes in 10 months. The estimate by Wychor was 800-900 pilots (per the email update) but the furlough notice was for 450. This assumes heavy attrition as guys bail out of 9E. So, assume that 450 are furloughed and another 400 leave through attrition. Our list would get cut from 2,800 pilots down to 2000. If that's the case, I'd be 1900 out of 2000. You say it was a risk to leave with no TPIC, but honestly, what TPIC is there to be had for any Pinnacle FOs hired in 2007 and onwards? They're all gonna be around the 1800-2000 on the list, and that is pretty much bottom after the furloughs and attrition. People in that position will be FOs for a loong time. I was already on 5th year FO pay, had I stayed, I would have probably been a 9th or 10th year FO before I saw captain pay and TPIC time. And, keep in mind, this assumes Pinnacle actually exists in the next couple years. On the other hand, many here have predicted that if Delta caves scope, they may park three 50 seaters for one additional 90 seater at the regional level. Regardless, while Pinnacle may get more bigger RJs, they will be at the expense of the 50 seat fleet. Pinnacle's height peaked after the merger in 2011. From now on, it's a downhill slide and there won't be any large aircraft orders. Any larger jet will be replacing a smaller 50 seat jet. So without growth, there are no advancement opportunities for 9E FOs. TPIC time is a pipe dream for anyone hired mid-2007 and onwards. Do the analysis for yourself, losing 74 airplanes in 10 months, tons of downgrades, displacements, and furloughs, no new aircraft coming, no new flying awarded. So where is the hope for 9E FOs?



Those $300 fares are entry level market fares when service starts to a new city. Once the market matures (about a year later) then the fares are industry average with the rest. Remember, Jetblue competes on a lot of our transcons flights, and even they were offering trans con one ways for $150 bucks! And don't equate air fare prices with why we'll never see pre-BK rates at Delta again. Even adjusted for inflation, air ticket prices were DIRT CHEAP in 2000 and 2001 when Delta and United got their new contracts. Pricing for fares is something the airlines control and change for any variety of factors. For example, search the Vanguard and American Airlines lawsuit back in the day. Vanguard entered MCI to DFW at a good lowfare cost. American nearly doubled the amount of daily flights on the MCI to DFW route and undercut Vanguard. Pricing is something that is above our paygrade. The airlines have computers, program coding, market analysis and all the other tools to decide what fare to offer.

I would equate VA at the same level as Spirit as of this writing, May 2012, in terms of pay package and earning potential. VA is lower than Delta/JetBlue and higher than United/US Air for the same fleet type.

By the way, why attack only VA? Where is your attack on Sun Country, an ALPA-represented scheduled carrier currently flying for the lowest industry wages on the Boeing 737NGs? Have you seen their payrates? Where is ALPA for them? Or, is being a smaller carrier an ok excuse for their wages, as long as they are ALPA? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Systemized (Post 1190554)

So, all the Q400s will be on the Republic certificate, correct?

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 1190518)

I'm not sure I said that. An overhaul? What do you mean? I never used the words 'overhaul.' And I practice what I preach. 9E was screwing its employee groups, and I did what was the only logical choice: say no, and get out.


Thanks for the first sentence. You can PM me for any questions if you're interested.

As for the second part, I didn't really have a choice. Not sure when you were hired, but I was a 2007 hire at original 9E which put me around 1910 when I left on the overall list. Even before the parking of the props and the ATL -900s, our integration screwed 9E pilots hired in 2007. The movement and was all backwards (downgrades for 9E) while Colgan/Mesaba took 9E captain spots. Whatever, it happened, nothing can change that. But that right there was enough to give me the incentive to try and leave. Now the BK and the fleet cuts means 9E is losing 74 airplanes in 10 months. The estimate by Wychor was 800-900 pilots (per the email update) but the furlough notice was for 450. This assumes heavy attrition as guys bail out of 9E. So, assume that 450 are furloughed and another 400 leave through attrition. Our list would get cut from 2,800 pilots down to 2000. If that's the case, I'd be 1900 out of 2000. You say it was a risk to leave with no TPIC, but honestly, what TPIC is there to be had for any Pinnacle FOs hired in 2007 and onwards? They're all gonna be around the 1800-2000 on the list, and that is pretty much bottom after the furloughs and attrition. People in that position will be FOs for a loong time. I was already on 5th year FO pay, had I stayed, I would have probably been a 9th or 10th year FO before I saw captain pay and TPIC time. And, keep in mind, this assumes Pinnacle actually exists in the next couple years. On the other hand, many here have predicted that if Delta caves scope, they may park three 50 seaters for one additional 90 seater at the regional level. Regardless, while Pinnacle may get more bigger RJs, they will be at the expense of the 50 seat fleet. Pinnacle's height peaked after the merger in 2011. From now on, it's a downhill slide and there won't be any large aircraft orders. Any larger jet will be replacing a smaller 50 seat jet. So without growth, there are no advancement opportunities for 9E FOs. TPIC time is a pipe dream for anyone hired mid-2007 and onwards. Do the analysis for yourself, losing 74 airplanes in 10 months, tons of downgrades, displacements, and furloughs, no new aircraft coming, no new flying awarded. So where is the hope for 9E FOs?



Those $300 fares are entry level market fares when service starts to a new city. Once the market matures (about a year later) then the fares are industry average with the rest. Remember, Jetblue competes on a lot of our transcons flights, and even they were offering trans con one ways for $150 bucks! And don't equate air fare prices with why we'll never see pre-BK rates at Delta again. Even adjusted for inflation, air ticket prices were DIRT CHEAP in 2000 and 2001 when Delta and United got their new contracts. Pricing for fares is something the airlines control and change for any variety of factors. For example, search the Vanguard and American Airlines lawsuit back in the day. Vanguard entered MCI to DFW at a good lowfare cost. American nearly doubled the amount of daily flights on the MCI to DFW route and undercut Vanguard. Pricing is something that is above our paygrade. The airlines have computers, program coding, market analysis and all the other tools to decide what fare to offer.

I would equate VA at the same level as Spirit as of this writing, May 2012, in terms of pay package and earning potential. VA is lower than Delta/JetBlue and higher than United/US Air for the same fleet type.

By the way, why attack only VA? Where is your attack on Sun Country, an ALPA-represented scheduled carrier currently flying for the lowest industry wages on the Boeing 737NGs? Have you seen their payrates? Where is ALPA for them? Or, is being a smaller carrier an ok excuse for their wages, as long as they are ALPA? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by thump (Post 1190971)

Yes. They are already here, just not in service for United. Latest almost-a-fact rumor is that Pit will be the other base getting them. At least initially.