Training Failures
#11
But I have to tell you, halfway through my initial Systems class I thought my head was going to explode. And I have two master's degrees from a rather well-known university in the UK that's been around for about 800 years. Nevertheless, initial Systems was the hardest I've ever had to study for anything. Not trying to sound arrogant, just pointing out that drinking from the firehose is startlingly difficult if you've never done it before. I guess it could also be that I entered regional training 20 years after getting those fancy degrees, so I suppose my brain was a bit mushy...
(It probably didn't help that apparently I took Systems wayyyyy too seriously since I got 100 on the test and found the test to be a breeze. But halfway through the class I thought I was going to flunk out. They train you to a much higher standard than they actually test you. Wish I'd known that!)
Last edited by Turbosina; 01-17-2017 at 09:55 PM.
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 755
Most of the regional training programs were originally designed for 250 hour FO's to be successful. In most cases, the training programs are the same. In theory, any 1500 hour pilot should have no issue in training.
The biggest difference between success and failure has been instrument flying. Those that have had a good amount of instrument flying tend to be very successful. Those that go to 141 schools that do not allow flying in actual IMC are not as likely to do well. Same goes with the private pilot that will never fly in actual IFR.
The biggest difference between success and failure has been instrument flying. Those that have had a good amount of instrument flying tend to be very successful. Those that go to 141 schools that do not allow flying in actual IMC are not as likely to do well. Same goes with the private pilot that will never fly in actual IFR.
#13
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Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 805
The requirements of 10 years ago are long gone. The new AQP ride is much more lenient and therefore the training leading up to it is more forgiving. The old checkride was about a 45-60 min ride where you had to nail it. No retraining or do overs. Now with most AQP programs you are able to redo two items once or one item twice with no "teaching" in between. The sim events leading up to the checkride used to be much less forgiving because the instructors knew that the standards were so tight at the checkride. Upgrade type rides at my old company had a 30-40% pass rate before AQP and before all FO's were required to have an ATP.
Systems has also gone from overkill, gee whiz knowledge to "what can I manipulate in the cockpit" in those same ten years. I know what bus bar powers it but does it actually help me when I am rifling through a QRH anyway?
People saying that training isn't that hard is pretty incredible because it used to be a world of suck. I have seen more than a few grown men brought to tears from the older programs. Your initial training will be pretty straightforward if you relax and listen to your instructors. Fast and dirty way to do well: Study what they say, forget your last airplane/company and don't compare procedures, eat/sleep/workout to stay healthy, and look over whatever you are doing the next day the night prior. A good attitude and a little book work is all that is needed now.
Systems has also gone from overkill, gee whiz knowledge to "what can I manipulate in the cockpit" in those same ten years. I know what bus bar powers it but does it actually help me when I am rifling through a QRH anyway?
People saying that training isn't that hard is pretty incredible because it used to be a world of suck. I have seen more than a few grown men brought to tears from the older programs. Your initial training will be pretty straightforward if you relax and listen to your instructors. Fast and dirty way to do well: Study what they say, forget your last airplane/company and don't compare procedures, eat/sleep/workout to stay healthy, and look over whatever you are doing the next day the night prior. A good attitude and a little book work is all that is needed now.
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 327
The requirements of 10 years ago are long gone. The new AQP ride is much more lenient and therefore the training leading up to it is more forgiving. The old checkride was about a 45-60 min ride where you had to nail it. No retraining or do overs. Now with most AQP programs you are able to redo two items once or one item twice with no "teaching" in between. The sim events leading up to the checkride used to be much less forgiving because the instructors knew that the standards were so tight at the checkride. Upgrade type rides at my old company had a 30-40% pass rate before AQP and before all FO's were required to have an ATP.
Systems has also gone from overkill, gee whiz knowledge to "what can I manipulate in the cockpit" in those same ten years. I know what bus bar powers it but does it actually help me when I am rifling through a QRH anyway?
People saying that training isn't that hard is pretty incredible because it used to be a world of suck. I have seen more than a few grown men brought to tears from the older programs. Your initial training will be pretty straightforward if you relax and listen to your instructors. Fast and dirty way to do well: Study what they say, forget your last airplane/company and don't compare procedures, eat/sleep/workout to stay healthy, and look over whatever you are doing the next day the night prior. A good attitude and a little book work is all that is needed now.
Systems has also gone from overkill, gee whiz knowledge to "what can I manipulate in the cockpit" in those same ten years. I know what bus bar powers it but does it actually help me when I am rifling through a QRH anyway?
People saying that training isn't that hard is pretty incredible because it used to be a world of suck. I have seen more than a few grown men brought to tears from the older programs. Your initial training will be pretty straightforward if you relax and listen to your instructors. Fast and dirty way to do well: Study what they say, forget your last airplane/company and don't compare procedures, eat/sleep/workout to stay healthy, and look over whatever you are doing the next day the night prior. A good attitude and a little book work is all that is needed now.
#15
in the two companies I have worked for the guys who struggle the most are the ones who have their ratings and then take a desk job doing whatever for 20 years and decide to "give the airline thing a shot" later in life when they're over 45. Those guys and the guys who do single pilot vfr type flying. It just ends up being to fast of a training environment for them. But to answer the question id still say the average washout raw is probably 10-15 percent. Whether it be can't handle it or just the guys who get all the way though ground school and then decide they don't like it. I've done it with AQP and non AQP type training. I'll agree AQP is a lot more lenient and don't have to know all the mind boggling numbers and limitations that don't apply to a pilot much. The days of engineering the airplane are over.
#17
Something stinks there. If you know you passed, you raise hell and take it up as far as you need to. A professional pilot knows what the standards are, so the checkrides aren't a mystery or guessing game. There are no "quotas", so something is fishy. If you know you are right and don't take action, then I guess you might lack the required assertiveness that comes along with the job of being an airline pilot.
#18
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 361
ask question
Not every training program is the same. The program at Envoy (and I think Endevor as well) is set... If you arent ready for your checkride by the end of the program, you are not recommended. Other airlines (Skywest and Expressjet) will continue to work with you as long as you are making progress. It's not a level playing field out there.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 365
Not every training program is the same. The program at Envoy (and I think Endevor as well) is set... If you arent ready for your checkride by the end of the program, you are not recommended. Other airlines (Skywest and Expressjet) will continue to work with you as long as you are making progress. It's not a level playing field out there.
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 67
There are a lot more training failures now but mostly attributed to the airlines being less selective. Let's say half of those interviewed years ago got a job, today prob 90% that are "qualified" get the job.
Biggest issue is this, attitude! You do your part and put in your time you'll be fine. Being an airline pilot is not a "participation trophy"
Biggest issue is this, attitude! You do your part and put in your time you'll be fine. Being an airline pilot is not a "participation trophy"
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