Weird clearance... I was confused. Could use some input.
02-08-2007, 03:30 PM
#1
Che Guevara
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Weird clearance... I was confused. Could use some input.
I was flying from SRR to DRT flying IFR at 23k. Out of nowhere they ask me to climb to 24k. So I did. Then he comes on and says.. "Merlin XXXXK I have new instructions for you let me know when you're ready to copy.. "
"Ok I'm ready(kinda odd feeling)"
"Merlin XXXXK you are cleared direct to 60nm out on the 301 degree radial from DLF(Laughlin AFB). After reaching 60nm on the 301 radial you are then cleared direct to DLF then direct DRT"
So I figured my radial to the station would be 121. I was already on 126 and maintaining for the past 100 miles. So I was sitting 175miles out when I got this. My question to you guys is how would you have found 60nm out from the VOR at 301 radial? I can't even pick up the VOR at 175 miles yet they wanted me to start moving then. I had no way to use the VOR to select a radial. All I could think of was that I was so close to the radial already that I turned right about 10 degrees using the autopilot on HDG mode then used the GPS hitting "Direct>DLF>Enter" every minute or so to finally find out when my DTK to DLF was 121 degrees then I flew that till 60nm out. Was there an eaiser way? I wanted to ask the guy what was the point of making me go through all this for a 5 degree change in my overall direction. Then I ask for the GPS 13 approach and would like to let down if possible. He tells me to go direct for the GPS 13 approach but descend only to 15k then wait for further clearance.
I ended up having to go to flight idle on the engines and descend at 5k fpm at 240ish kts just to be 1.5k high on my IAF trying to lose altitude and lose 30kts so I could start poking things out there which for me was a very fine line. All this none the less in actual breaking out at 800agl to only see the runway screaming up on me. I just brought the nose up and leveled out high then once I hit 210kts I started dumping everything out there. I rounded out over the numbers and touched down in just the right spot having never used power for the last 20nm. I'm sure you guys have been through this before but I've never had anything like this happen and I fly in and out of here all the time.
Anyway back to the clearance.... How would you have followed it? Way far out from the VOR yet being told to hold a radial with a Garmin 530/430 stack. Is there some way to force the GPS to pick a radial for you to intercept off the VOR?
"Ok I'm ready(kinda odd feeling)"
"Merlin XXXXK you are cleared direct to 60nm out on the 301 degree radial from DLF(Laughlin AFB). After reaching 60nm on the 301 radial you are then cleared direct to DLF then direct DRT"
So I figured my radial to the station would be 121. I was already on 126 and maintaining for the past 100 miles. So I was sitting 175miles out when I got this. My question to you guys is how would you have found 60nm out from the VOR at 301 radial? I can't even pick up the VOR at 175 miles yet they wanted me to start moving then. I had no way to use the VOR to select a radial. All I could think of was that I was so close to the radial already that I turned right about 10 degrees using the autopilot on HDG mode then used the GPS hitting "Direct>DLF>Enter" every minute or so to finally find out when my DTK to DLF was 121 degrees then I flew that till 60nm out. Was there an eaiser way? I wanted to ask the guy what was the point of making me go through all this for a 5 degree change in my overall direction. Then I ask for the GPS 13 approach and would like to let down if possible. He tells me to go direct for the GPS 13 approach but descend only to 15k then wait for further clearance.
I ended up having to go to flight idle on the engines and descend at 5k fpm at 240ish kts just to be 1.5k high on my IAF trying to lose altitude and lose 30kts so I could start poking things out there which for me was a very fine line. All this none the less in actual breaking out at 800agl to only see the runway screaming up on me. I just brought the nose up and leveled out high then once I hit 210kts I started dumping everything out there. I rounded out over the numbers and touched down in just the right spot having never used power for the last 20nm. I'm sure you guys have been through this before but I've never had anything like this happen and I fly in and out of here all the time.
Anyway back to the clearance.... How would you have followed it? Way far out from the VOR yet being told to hold a radial with a Garmin 530/430 stack. Is there some way to force the GPS to pick a radial for you to intercept off the VOR?
02-08-2007, 03:51 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Formerly Avantair
Posts: 198
They wanted you to go to a point in space that was on that radial and at that DME. If you went into the GPS and entered those numbers off of the specifiied vor, it would have made a point for you and you could have gone direct to that. They didnt want you to actually get on a radial. Just think of it like making up an intersection. If there was an intersection at that point, they probably would have cleared you to it since you are /G.
Why in the hell did you continue that approach? That kind of sloppy flying is going to get you killed someday. Honestly, I don't know if I believe the story after seeing some of your other posts on CaaM.
Why in the hell did you continue that approach? That kind of sloppy flying is going to get you killed someday. Honestly, I don't know if I believe the story after seeing some of your other posts on CaaM.
02-08-2007, 04:06 PM
#5
Che Guevara
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
They wanted you to go to a point in space that was on that radial and at that DME. If you went into the GPS and entered those numbers off of the specifiied vor, it would have made a point for you and you could have gone direct to that. They didnt want you to actually get on a radial. Just think of it like making up an intersection. If there was an intersection at that point, they probably would have cleared you to it since you are /G.
Why in the hell did you continue that approach? That kind of sloppy flying is going to get you killed someday. Honestly, I don't know if I believe the story after seeing some of your other posts on CaaM.
Why in the hell did you continue that approach? That kind of sloppy flying is going to get you killed someday. Honestly, I don't know if I believe the story after seeing some of your other posts on CaaM.
As far as flying to the point I understood that part. But the only way I'd know when I was 60nm out on the 301 radial was to put myself on the 301 radial then fly till 60nm out. How do I tell the 530/430 to select a specific radial then specify a specific distance on that radial when I'm to the west of it? I have the 530 program on my PC here but can't manage to figure it out. I've got the manual too and have been digging but no luck. Outside of this what you believe is irrelevant and an un-needed comment. Why is it so impossible to ask for help and simply get it around some of you?
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 02-08-2007 at 04:13 PM.
02-08-2007, 04:08 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Lots and Lots of Days Off
Posts: 586
Precisely...
Im the garmin you just go to the user waypoint page, enter a name for your waypoint. Select the fix you want to REF WPT field (DLF) enter your radial (301) in the RAD field and enter your desired distance (60nm) in the DIS field.
Then hit DIRECT TO and you are LNAVing where you need to go.
I am a little disturbed by your post though, if you had GPS on board why are you commenting about not being able to receive the VOR that far out? The VOR is a waypoint in the database, you do not need to recieve the radio signal to navigate with it.
If you were in 699RK you were filed /G, so that is why you were issued an "RNAV" type waypoint. If you are going to file /G, you should know how to use the RNAV function of your box.
Be careful out there man.
Im the garmin you just go to the user waypoint page, enter a name for your waypoint. Select the fix you want to REF WPT field (DLF) enter your radial (301) in the RAD field and enter your desired distance (60nm) in the DIS field.
Then hit DIRECT TO and you are LNAVing where you need to go.
I am a little disturbed by your post though, if you had GPS on board why are you commenting about not being able to receive the VOR that far out? The VOR is a waypoint in the database, you do not need to recieve the radio signal to navigate with it.
If you were in 699RK you were filed /G, so that is why you were issued an "RNAV" type waypoint. If you are going to file /G, you should know how to use the RNAV function of your box.
Be careful out there man.
02-08-2007, 04:12 PM
#8
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,105
He clearly expected you to use RNAV (GPS) not traditional VOR nav. Presumeably your equipment code indicated to him that you had the ability to do that...sounds like you had the technology but didn't know how to use it. Next time I would ask for a vector... there are no provisions in enroute IFR for doing anything other than following a vector, following a radial/bearing/RNAV course, or going DIRECTLY to a fix. DO NOT just fumble your way around the sky Helen-Keller style, that could put you in a world of hurt.
02-08-2007, 04:13 PM
#9
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 28
First off, weird clearance. There are many things which might have made the control have you do this. Who knows, maybe he just wanted to give you a run for your money.
As far as the Garmin 430 is concerned. You can select to go Direct to the VOR...then push the OBS button and dial in your desired radial into the NAV indicator that your GPS is hooked up to. Now all you have to do is intercept the radial and track in to the 60DME fix. I cant think of a way to proceed direct to the 301@60 unless it was previously planned (ie. you have the lat/lon). This is all assuming that you have a NAV indicator hooked up to your GPS. As far as I know most GPS units have a NAV indicator which can be slaved to the GPS and an OBS function on the GPS. Another note...dont forget to take the GPS out of OBS slave mode when you are just proceeding direct otherwise it wont sequence your flight plan.....done that...no fun.
As far as the Garmin 430 is concerned. You can select to go Direct to the VOR...then push the OBS button and dial in your desired radial into the NAV indicator that your GPS is hooked up to. Now all you have to do is intercept the radial and track in to the 60DME fix. I cant think of a way to proceed direct to the 301@60 unless it was previously planned (ie. you have the lat/lon). This is all assuming that you have a NAV indicator hooked up to your GPS. As far as I know most GPS units have a NAV indicator which can be slaved to the GPS and an OBS function on the GPS. Another note...dont forget to take the GPS out of OBS slave mode when you are just proceeding direct otherwise it wont sequence your flight plan.....done that...no fun.
02-08-2007, 04:14 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: EMB120 CA
Posts: 299
It's actually pretty easy, and not so unusual. First off, you must have filed that you were GPS or RNAV equipped, as there is no way to do this off of just straight VOR's. On the Garmin system, if my memory serves me correct, you need to go to the user waypoints page and create a new user defined waypoint. Then all you have to specify is the radial and distance (the unit should prompt you for this information) and the Garmin will create that waypoint in the database. Next, just push the direct to button and select your newly defined waypoint. That's it. You could also file for this on a clearance, it would read like this: DFL301/60. I believe the Garmin can also create user waypoints using crossing radials from different VOR's.
I commonly would get a direct-to radial/distance fix when flying to Crescent City, CA. One of the approach IAF's starts at a radial/distance fix, so quite easy and handy to navigate there with a GPS. Without one, you'd either need radar vectors (which never happened as their radar coverage is not good at low altitudes) or fly direct to the VOR, outbound until reaching the fix, then inbound again. Waste of time and gas.
I commonly would get a direct-to radial/distance fix when flying to Crescent City, CA. One of the approach IAF's starts at a radial/distance fix, so quite easy and handy to navigate there with a GPS. Without one, you'd either need radar vectors (which never happened as their radar coverage is not good at low altitudes) or fly direct to the VOR, outbound until reaching the fix, then inbound again. Waste of time and gas.
