Weird clearance... I was confused. Could use some input.
02-09-2007, 06:14 PM
#81
Che Guevara
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
No joke I was completely behind the merlin on that approach. I've never denied it. I was on the edge of things but I held her and it came out ok and I could simply be lucky. I'll admit all that.
As far as them overshooting the runway... well... It's only a POS hourly paid instructor, as you put it, that couldn't teach them against that problem. The airforce likes the way I do it. I believe today I'm at 49 students. Of which 46 are continueing their program successfully. Two DOR, one didn't think he was ready the other didn't want the 10 yr commitment, and one medical. No fails. I'll say it again I'm constantly learning loads of new things in the Merlin or when I'm flying from one country to another ect. All new things that come with progression in ones career. I'm still learning things as a CFI. But as a CFI I'm completely confident in my abilites and my track record proves so. The methods I use while instructing have changed overtime to become more efficient and evaluations of me are constantly being made by the airforce which is why my program is one of the last few in the nation still going after they centralized things in Oct. 06.
Anyway about the single engine explination. Simplicity has it's merits. Doesn't make it not true and its even ground to debate over. My experience in RJ's or Boeings is non-existant. Doesn't make me any less. But it would be a one sided debate which what's the point. Can't learn from that. Which is the whole point of all of this. It's when people use their time to take cheap stabs or "yelling" over and over or misconstrue small facts here and there that gets nowhere. Telling me I was behind the aircraft is a no brainer esp since I said so.
Hindsights 20/20 and you don't make it this far not utilizing it. I'm completely open to criticism so long as it's possible for myself or others to learn at it. I agree hours in an aircraft aren't everything either. However I also believe position such as flying a jet doesn't make you any better than a guy flying an ultra-light. It only makes you better at a jet.
The reason it's easy to get upset is because some individuals would rather use their time to ridicule then to address a question or look for a positive outcome. This is officially my last post in this thread. I just want those who are so completely negative to think about something.
The main idea of a forum is to provide knowledge that other's can benifit from. Sly remarks and constant negativity are counter productive. It discourages someone to ask questions. In this one thread a few people have popped up and admitted they they, along with myself, have learned something. Granted it felt as if I had to swim upstream the entire time but I still got my answers. However due to the manner in which someone of lesser knowledge of a subject is threated even I am deterred to ask a question again. Flight schools, training environments, even airlines and FAA guys themselves have questions or find themselves in unfamiliar situations. A saftey net of a place to ask openly is needed if your true goal is to promote saftey.
In my particular situation I've been mocked and degraded stating I'm substandard because I didn't know how to do something on a GPS while filing /G. I was once very up to date on my procedures. I'm doing what I can now to get back there. It isn't that I or other people lack ability. In my situation my greatest fear has come true and that's that I've become complacent. I've flown roughly 1400hrs in one year. Most of which was training VFR students in an older aircraft that doesn't have the top notch civil equipment I trained in. After flying on the Gulf Coast my time spent in actual basically went to zero out here in the desert. However I have learned other skills that prove usefull.
The point is I'm constantly learning. Everyone is. I'll ask questions because while many have left this forum because of the negative naysayers out there. I stay for the one or two that have something to say. It's from them I'm capable to do something today that I couldn't yesterday. Which is a win situation in my mind. Others take the negative input very seriously. The only thing that saves is the anonymity. Which I'm more open then most.
The cocky responses, ridicules, ect. come from some of you because you feel you are higher up on the food chain. The responsibility of that position alone requires a high level of maturity which many of you lack.
If you haven't noticed there are people that have left this forum. You had a district attorney who's now a judge that was mocked from this place. You have captains of older airlines going to other places. What you also have is an abundance of 20-30yr old(immature by comparison to the responsibilies they hold) as well. The manner in which you carry yourself can speak volumes. I might do things wrong here or there and we all do but one thing you see from me that I don't ever see from others is an apology or an admittance that I was wrong and you (whoever you are) is right. I stand by my statements.
Only when one presents him/herself in a manner as professional as possible can they be respected and taken seriously. You don't have to agree with that person. TonyC as we can all see has laid his mind on the subject completely out on the table. Maybe I didnt write something clearly or with the 8 pages of posts he didn't feel liek going through them all to realize some of the assumptions made were incorrect. Had they been correct I would have to say what he said was completely correct. I don't feel it is.
None the less his opinion is completely with merit and always welcomed whether it's putting the screws to me or not. That is what a professional manner is capable of obtaining. Respect regarless of mutual agreement.
I would rather see someone make a post called "ToiletDuck's a tool" and keep it there. Then bring it into a post I made where the goal was knowledge.
As far as them overshooting the runway... well... It's only a POS hourly paid instructor, as you put it, that couldn't teach them against that problem. The airforce likes the way I do it. I believe today I'm at 49 students. Of which 46 are continueing their program successfully. Two DOR, one didn't think he was ready the other didn't want the 10 yr commitment, and one medical. No fails. I'll say it again I'm constantly learning loads of new things in the Merlin or when I'm flying from one country to another ect. All new things that come with progression in ones career. I'm still learning things as a CFI. But as a CFI I'm completely confident in my abilites and my track record proves so. The methods I use while instructing have changed overtime to become more efficient and evaluations of me are constantly being made by the airforce which is why my program is one of the last few in the nation still going after they centralized things in Oct. 06.
Anyway about the single engine explination. Simplicity has it's merits. Doesn't make it not true and its even ground to debate over. My experience in RJ's or Boeings is non-existant. Doesn't make me any less. But it would be a one sided debate which what's the point. Can't learn from that. Which is the whole point of all of this. It's when people use their time to take cheap stabs or "yelling" over and over or misconstrue small facts here and there that gets nowhere. Telling me I was behind the aircraft is a no brainer esp since I said so.
Hindsights 20/20 and you don't make it this far not utilizing it. I'm completely open to criticism so long as it's possible for myself or others to learn at it. I agree hours in an aircraft aren't everything either. However I also believe position such as flying a jet doesn't make you any better than a guy flying an ultra-light. It only makes you better at a jet.
The reason it's easy to get upset is because some individuals would rather use their time to ridicule then to address a question or look for a positive outcome. This is officially my last post in this thread. I just want those who are so completely negative to think about something.
The main idea of a forum is to provide knowledge that other's can benifit from. Sly remarks and constant negativity are counter productive. It discourages someone to ask questions. In this one thread a few people have popped up and admitted they they, along with myself, have learned something. Granted it felt as if I had to swim upstream the entire time but I still got my answers. However due to the manner in which someone of lesser knowledge of a subject is threated even I am deterred to ask a question again. Flight schools, training environments, even airlines and FAA guys themselves have questions or find themselves in unfamiliar situations. A saftey net of a place to ask openly is needed if your true goal is to promote saftey.
In my particular situation I've been mocked and degraded stating I'm substandard because I didn't know how to do something on a GPS while filing /G. I was once very up to date on my procedures. I'm doing what I can now to get back there. It isn't that I or other people lack ability. In my situation my greatest fear has come true and that's that I've become complacent. I've flown roughly 1400hrs in one year. Most of which was training VFR students in an older aircraft that doesn't have the top notch civil equipment I trained in. After flying on the Gulf Coast my time spent in actual basically went to zero out here in the desert. However I have learned other skills that prove usefull.
The point is I'm constantly learning. Everyone is. I'll ask questions because while many have left this forum because of the negative naysayers out there. I stay for the one or two that have something to say. It's from them I'm capable to do something today that I couldn't yesterday. Which is a win situation in my mind. Others take the negative input very seriously. The only thing that saves is the anonymity. Which I'm more open then most.
The cocky responses, ridicules, ect. come from some of you because you feel you are higher up on the food chain. The responsibility of that position alone requires a high level of maturity which many of you lack.
If you haven't noticed there are people that have left this forum. You had a district attorney who's now a judge that was mocked from this place. You have captains of older airlines going to other places. What you also have is an abundance of 20-30yr old(immature by comparison to the responsibilies they hold) as well. The manner in which you carry yourself can speak volumes. I might do things wrong here or there and we all do but one thing you see from me that I don't ever see from others is an apology or an admittance that I was wrong and you (whoever you are) is right. I stand by my statements.
Only when one presents him/herself in a manner as professional as possible can they be respected and taken seriously. You don't have to agree with that person. TonyC as we can all see has laid his mind on the subject completely out on the table. Maybe I didnt write something clearly or with the 8 pages of posts he didn't feel liek going through them all to realize some of the assumptions made were incorrect. Had they been correct I would have to say what he said was completely correct. I don't feel it is.
None the less his opinion is completely with merit and always welcomed whether it's putting the screws to me or not. That is what a professional manner is capable of obtaining. Respect regarless of mutual agreement.
I would rather see someone make a post called "ToiletDuck's a tool" and keep it there. Then bring it into a post I made where the goal was knowledge.
02-09-2007, 06:40 PM
#82
Che Guevara
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
To clarify a few things made while posting.
A)Erik I'm not talking IFR I'm talking pattern work VFR.
B)Tony It's plain to me that after seeing the quotes I knew exactly what I was talking about yet didn't manage to put that on paper. The rapid descent was prior to IAF. It was over lake amistad in VFR conditions with clouds on the other side. We descended at a rapid pace with throttles at flight idle, leveled out before the fix a mile or two as we were about to hit IMC(clouds off other side of lake), that was my call as I wanted to get stable before starting the approach. (had things gone wrong, "oldie" as we'll refer to him as would have initiated the missed approach. He wanted to let me learn. I leveled out at 4.5k instead of 3k then preceeded to bleed off the speed. Kept nose level while in flight idle to hit 210. Now I'm inside the IAF and hitting 176kts so gear down(this is still the normal spot to do so I'm just usually going 150ish), now we are slowing down and continue the approach as published. Flaps half over FAF, now at rougly 150kts, throttles still at flight idle, break out at 145kts and 800agl with 500ft to go till mins, runway in sight, flaps full(i usually have 30% in with flaps full but sitting at flight idle) still slowing down, hit 130kts crossing threshold, touchdown in the zone. From the descent starting out before the lake, throttles went to idle and were not touched. The approach was fast but stable and on the mark. I fly them carrying power to the runway because it's needed however this time we glided the whole way because it simply wasn't needed. Like I said in my first post. It was exciting to me because I hadn't experienced that before... but to those more experienced it's probably not a big deal. So when I say exciting or the runway was screaming up at me I mean it from I normally fly a 172 standpoint. Not mach .something. And when I state i felt it was beyond my ability at the time that was my ability. Not yours doing a 0/0 landing. Our reference points are most likely different. It was the unknown, which now I know, that had me on the edge of my seat. But like I said, for the "oldie" and someone like yourself you'd probably be sitting there like I do when I'm with a new student all over again watching him fly all over the place on final because I know he's at his limits but not mine as the instructor.
If your thoughts were we nosed over until we broke out at 800agl then flew to the IAF that's not what happened however i can see how that was assumed. I didn't go into detail on any of that prior because I didn't have any questions about the approach, it went just fine. My questions were on the clearance and how to use the 430/530 stack with it so I didn't really elaborate. Having been in the aircraft while it all went down things went smooth. Just fast. it was the reason I was put there by approach that i didn't understand.
As far as why I have faith in the man. Three tours in nam. C5s, 141s, 130s, DC-3 gunships, flew a C130 missing 27ft of wing(still doesn't know how they made it), then Gulfstreams, hawkers, citations, lears, westwinds, MU-2, Kingairs, and currently a Merlin IIIB with the boss eyeballing a citation II. There could be more but that's what I know about. He's trained many many people. I've never met a single person that's met him and not respected him for his abilities and knowledge. He's run the FBO and flow for the bigboss for years, flies the clerigy around, prettymuch done it all. Most improtantly he's still here to talk about it. So apparently I've got reason to listen to the guy. I understand completely where you're coming from but the judgement some are casting is based on a disagreement in the manner in which he felt I should learn something. Oh well on that part. Maybe some of you will meet him and enjoy it. Just because he has a lot of hours isn't why. I think my Baylor prof is brilliant but the crappiest teacher ever and wouldn't do something with him as far as I could toss him.
A)Erik I'm not talking IFR I'm talking pattern work VFR.
B)Tony It's plain to me that after seeing the quotes I knew exactly what I was talking about yet didn't manage to put that on paper. The rapid descent was prior to IAF. It was over lake amistad in VFR conditions with clouds on the other side. We descended at a rapid pace with throttles at flight idle, leveled out before the fix a mile or two as we were about to hit IMC(clouds off other side of lake), that was my call as I wanted to get stable before starting the approach. (had things gone wrong, "oldie" as we'll refer to him as would have initiated the missed approach. He wanted to let me learn. I leveled out at 4.5k instead of 3k then preceeded to bleed off the speed. Kept nose level while in flight idle to hit 210. Now I'm inside the IAF and hitting 176kts so gear down(this is still the normal spot to do so I'm just usually going 150ish), now we are slowing down and continue the approach as published. Flaps half over FAF, now at rougly 150kts, throttles still at flight idle, break out at 145kts and 800agl with 500ft to go till mins, runway in sight, flaps full(i usually have 30% in with flaps full but sitting at flight idle) still slowing down, hit 130kts crossing threshold, touchdown in the zone. From the descent starting out before the lake, throttles went to idle and were not touched. The approach was fast but stable and on the mark. I fly them carrying power to the runway because it's needed however this time we glided the whole way because it simply wasn't needed. Like I said in my first post. It was exciting to me because I hadn't experienced that before... but to those more experienced it's probably not a big deal. So when I say exciting or the runway was screaming up at me I mean it from I normally fly a 172 standpoint. Not mach .something. And when I state i felt it was beyond my ability at the time that was my ability. Not yours doing a 0/0 landing. Our reference points are most likely different. It was the unknown, which now I know, that had me on the edge of my seat. But like I said, for the "oldie" and someone like yourself you'd probably be sitting there like I do when I'm with a new student all over again watching him fly all over the place on final because I know he's at his limits but not mine as the instructor.
If your thoughts were we nosed over until we broke out at 800agl then flew to the IAF that's not what happened however i can see how that was assumed. I didn't go into detail on any of that prior because I didn't have any questions about the approach, it went just fine. My questions were on the clearance and how to use the 430/530 stack with it so I didn't really elaborate. Having been in the aircraft while it all went down things went smooth. Just fast. it was the reason I was put there by approach that i didn't understand.
As far as why I have faith in the man. Three tours in nam. C5s, 141s, 130s, DC-3 gunships, flew a C130 missing 27ft of wing(still doesn't know how they made it), then Gulfstreams, hawkers, citations, lears, westwinds, MU-2, Kingairs, and currently a Merlin IIIB with the boss eyeballing a citation II. There could be more but that's what I know about. He's trained many many people. I've never met a single person that's met him and not respected him for his abilities and knowledge. He's run the FBO and flow for the bigboss for years, flies the clerigy around, prettymuch done it all. Most improtantly he's still here to talk about it. So apparently I've got reason to listen to the guy. I understand completely where you're coming from but the judgement some are casting is based on a disagreement in the manner in which he felt I should learn something. Oh well on that part. Maybe some of you will meet him and enjoy it. Just because he has a lot of hours isn't why. I think my Baylor prof is brilliant but the crappiest teacher ever and wouldn't do something with him as far as I could toss him.
02-09-2007, 11:58 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
Slinging aluminum through the air is not the time to learn? What did you do for your private, isntrument, commercial, multi, cfi, ect? Sit in a sim? You trusted someone with only 300 or so hours and you say a guy who's flown since the 60's doesn't know. He had everything under control I was the one that didn't know what was going on. If you can't trust him you can't trust anyone. This was me and a very experience individual. Climb down off the cross there mr high and mighty. You just enjoy being a smart arse and that kind of attitude doesn't belong here in my opinion. How many hours do you have? Why should I trust you flying me around? You say you're busting my balls by making a smug one liner? No you have bad attitude. Forget I ever mentioned anything. I'll pretend there wasn't anything I could never figure out then sit down get online anonymously and play your card.
02-10-2007, 12:06 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
Someone's got to teach you. You start from nothing as a preprivate. You have no limits. Like I said it was very exciting for me and I was the one behind the ball. Doesn't mean the guy next to me had any issues what-so-ever. If things would have gotten out of control he would have taken over. All I do all day with my students is let them almost fly off the side of a runway just to take over at the last second and explain what went wrong. You pracitice emerg descents for commercial ect. so what was so dangerous there? It's required to learn how to do. Not to mention to get the high altitude endorsement it's recommended to learn. All I'm hearing now is kneejerk reactions to something being blown out of proportion. Like I said is killing one engine, doing stalls, emerg procedures, spiraling descents, slowflight, steep turns ect. dangerous just because you're in a bigger more powerful aircraft? If not then why would a simple throttle chop and nose over be dangerous? Never exceed any airspeeds and never really went over 1g. Give me a break on the dangerous aspect of what happened.
02-10-2007, 01:43 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 614
Well first off, its a dangerous place. As you have already shown trying to learn while flying the thing is not a good idea, you and the idiot next to you could have killed yourselves and a whole lot of other people, and for what cause? so you could learn. The briefing room/classroom is the place to learn how to use the very thing (GPS) that you claimed to know by filing that suffix code in your flight plan. I will put it bluntly, you and the guy you were flying with have no business in the air with the equipment you had if you dont know how to use it....YOU COULD HAVE KILLED SOMEONE!!! Your ignorance to the fact that you guys f'ed big time scares the hell out me and makes me happy to know that I dont come into contact with you on a regular basis. The premise that you rely on a crusty old captain to bail you out a situation that you had no business in being in is even more freighten than the fact that you somehow passed a checkride that gave the right to teach people how to fly. Hope you dont end up as a statistic with my family aboard. Like rickair said, learn your equipment before you choose to do something stupid like "just wing it" and hope everything turns out okay...Its clowns like you that end up lawn darting a giant piece of steel into the ground.
02-10-2007, 06:10 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FDX A300 CPT
Posts: 967
The main idea of a forum is to provide knowledge that other's can benifit from. Sly remarks and constant negativity are counter productive. It discourages someone to ask questions. In this one thread a few people have popped up and admitted they they, along with myself, have learned something.
dude..if you r getting your aviation knowledge from this forum...you need to re-evaluate your career....!
02-10-2007, 06:20 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: M88B
Posts: 1,182
No I'm sure he could have. But we landed. Spent an hour cleaning out the aircraft. Then went in and talked about several other things. He told me to play around with the software some to figure it out then talk to him tomorrow about it. So I figured I asked here which considering some of the crowd I should have known better. God good should anyone make a mistake I mean the world might as well end! Or perhaps lack of curiosity or scaredness to actually ask deterred you. Anyway Rick things weren't out of control. Flew the plane just fine. Just something that was completely out of the ordinary for me. Exciting actually.
As far as filing /G. Yes he did it but yes I guess I should have known. Ignorance on my part as far as completely knowing all the aspects of my equipment. I had never been instructed nor ever received this kind of instruction before. Had I been flying it alone without the other guy giggling at me while I tried to figure it out I would have simply asked for a vector or even swallowed some pride and said "I don't know". But think of it more as a learning experience.
As far as filing /G. Yes he did it but yes I guess I should have known. Ignorance on my part as far as completely knowing all the aspects of my equipment. I had never been instructed nor ever received this kind of instruction before. Had I been flying it alone without the other guy giggling at me while I tried to figure it out I would have simply asked for a vector or even swallowed some pride and said "I don't know". But think of it more as a learning experience.
