CaptainMark

the whole flight was caught on video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cwmT...elated&search=

ToiletDuck

so much for the educational aspect of things. I'll just consider this discussion complete since it's impossible to keep things on the level.

fosters

Good luck with that. You're entire first flight in a jet is gonna be outside of your own limits.

TonyC

I'm going for brevity this time. When asking myself if I should do something, I ask:

Is it legal?

Is it safe?

Is it smart?

With those questions in mind, consider the following:
Not legal -- not a stable approach, not normal maneuvers.

Not safe -- what are the options when you scream through the cloud deck at 800', spot an obstacle, or realize you have an excessive sink rate with the power at idle, and the wheels in the well?

Not smart -- especially if you've never done anything remotely like it before.






I'm not usually harsh, but I think it's merited in this instance.

You don't know what his abilities are -- you know yours -- and you exceeded them.

He is not safe -- your story proves it.

He is not professional -- your story proves it. If he was knowledgeable, he would not have let you wander aimlessly trying to find the point to which you were cleared -- DIRECT -- straight line.

He gets no respect from me, and several other readers apparently, for risking your lives unneccessarily.

If coming in fast is usual for him, I wouldn't fly with him.

Yes, I implore you to not trust him. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the regional pilot, but I can guarantee you they have criteria for stable approaches that would preclude what you did.




I'm not going to go around with you about this -- you have a history of ignoring criticism you receive on these forums. All I can do is say, you've been warned.








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ToiletDuck

Ignoring criticism? Not in the least I welcome it all so long as it's based on accurate details.

You make statements as if factual yet how could you know? You say I don't know what his abilities are... Dead wrong. You say he was risking our lives but he wasn't. I was there. Breaking out at 800agl with a sink rate and wheel's in the wells? Where did you hear this I didn't say that. I said we leveled out 1.5k high on the IAF about 10nm out. put in the flaps, dropped the grear. And with the engines at idle followed the approach down while bleeding off airspeed at all times. It's not ignoring criticism. I admitted I should have known how to use the functions of the GPS I was asking about. You are bending what happened. yes it was beyond my abilities. That's what practice is for. The actual approach was commenced and executed using normal maneuvers. It was initiated with a higher airspeed and higher altitude. however "pitch for airspeed power for altitude" we cut the power, increased sink rate to match forward speed. As the speed bled off we landed dead on. Everything that happened rapid was prior to the approach in VFR conditions. You keep talking about busting out at 800 agl but that's what the darn approch is for. It takes you down below 800AGL. If there's a tower there then someone really screwed the pooch on the approach plates.

what's not legal about having engines at idle? how did you manage to get a single rating without having come in hot for a few landings, or slow for a few, or pitching back to quickly on takeoff? Every student I have comes in way to fast sometimes and way to slow others. If they didn't they wouldn't need an instructor to teach em better. I have a hawker who all the sudden pops up on freq stating he's on a 4nm final and I'm about 1/2mile in a 172. I tell my student to keep the speed up and it won't be an issue. Anything wrong with instructing him to do so? That's a real world situation and if you don't train for it you might as well hang up the wings. I never said anything we did was normal. It was for me to experience.

TonyC

Numbering added to clarify chronology. Number 3) is expanded in the following post:






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dhc8fo

As a matter of fact, yes there is. You won't be so happy when that student keeps his speed up (because his instructor taught him to do so) and then overshoots the runway and the feds come looking for the CFI that taught him this pearl.

Some planes are slow. Some are fast. Pilots know this. Most pilots accept this. The ones who don't are aholes or aren't getting paid by the hour.

In your example, the Hawker knows he has to give you the right of way. You can be as nice as pie and fly your 172 300 kts to the landing if you want butno one will care and you will have to explain why you blew out your tires, or lost directional control, or whatever. Or maybe you get lucky and nothing happens but eventually it will.

Also, I imagine you consider yourself a professional pilot now, right? So the single-engine rating explanation doesn't really apply here.

You fly a profile and that profile centers around a stabilized approach. No matter the aircraft.

ErikCFII

TD, screw the Hawker that's BEHIND you. I hope by "keep the speed up" you mean maintain normal approach speed and not fly a faster approach. If not, then you seem to have issues with stabilized approaches. Yes, you pose a real world situation. Flying a faster approach is not a real world solution. Flying a normal approach speed is a real world solution...actually, procedure. Sure, you hear 121 guys being instructed by ATC to maintain best forward speed or XXX kts to the marker. All that ends at the outer marker; inside the OM (or whatever the appch has) it's up to the pilots to fly Vref or be slowing to it. Depending on VMC or IMC the approach has to be stabilized by a certain altitude (usually 500' or 1000' respectively).

Let the Hawker worry about what to do. All you can do is state your position and intentions and allow the Hawker pilots to adjust. You are in a more critical phase of flight and they are more maneuverable. Sure, I could add that they should have called prior to 4NM, but I know that it happens.

Just make sure you don't get your students thinking that jets have priority (although, we'd like to have it) and that they need to rush a critical maneuver (landing) to satisfy others. Plus, your student is paying to fly that 172. Those Hawker boys are getting paid to fly and a go around isn't cash out of their pockets.

Regarding the confusing clearance, call the ATC facility you were talking to. Tell them the date, time, location, altitude you were at and maybe the controller will be available to discuss the clearance with you. If not, maybe he will be able to get back to you or another controller/supervisor may be able to help. Controllers are friendly and like to hear from pilots.

ErikCFII

Amen, dhc. I just finished my msg and saw yours posted. Well put.

dhc8fo

thanks. your's too!