crewdawg

You could have done a Fix-to-Fix!

ToiletDuck

He was watching me giggling. Of course I wouldn't have been as behind at all in that situation if we had split the load but I wouldn't have learned as much either. Now that stuff is hard coded. That was the point. It's like me letting a student do his first stall and watching while I know he's about to spin the plane. I've taught roughly 45 guys now and I've learned I can either spend a week yelling RIGHT RUDDER, wasting time, or I can let them spin it and they'll never do it again. Sometimes you have to fail, and do so miserably, to find your limitations so you can work within them, work on extending them, and becoming better at what you do. Nothing wrong with it. There was a guy in Uvalde that never flew on windy days, one day he was solo, it got windy, he crashed. He never subjected himself to the harsh environments with someone more experienced to learn from. Absolutely nothing wrong with what we did in the aircraft. The fact that it was a twin turbine we decided to do a little training in instead of a C-172 seems to freak people a little. But now if I have to "chop and drop" it's no thang

ToiletDuck

Crew are you still flying tweets? Where are you based out of I was told they were all decomissioned. When you track select do you get those or are they for some kind of special training?

TonyC

Your terminology is incorrect, and therefore confusing. If you were on the 306 degree radial, and proceeding direct, 126 degrees would have been your course, not your radial.

The incorrect terminology, and the unfamiliarity with the capabilities of the navigation equipment aboard, and which you took credit for by filing /G, casts doubt on your abilitites. Then, trying to do something that you haven't learned to do casts doubts on your judgment. We're glad you survived, but hope you'll contemplate the events seriously before attempting another "learning experience."

If ATC asks you to do something that you don't know how to do, confess, and ask for something different. Faking it can get you killed.





The descent you described does not happen every day. It is not well within the capabilities of airplane or pilot. It does not fit within the parameters of normal maneuvers.

The guy you were flying with said to continue. He was wrong. It is dangerous to descend below 800AGL IN IMC. It is more dangerous to do it at idle power and 240ish knots, and to be screaming down at the runway, not configured to land. You lived -- that doesn't make it safe, smart, or legal. I submit it was unsafe, unsmart, and illegal. I don't care how much experience that guy has in the airplane, or how little you have, never trust him again. NEVER. From your description, we just came pretty close to reading the NTSB Prelim report about the two of you at Laughlin.


HOMEWORK: Study "Stable Approach"





Be safe out there.








.

armagostj

how about......unable, give me a vector.

ToiletDuck

You're righ I probably missused the terms in the statement. Why do you consider it wrong to go below 800AGL in IMC? We were on the GPS approach. If there is confusion on this I'll restate but somewhere previously I stated we weren't doing those things during the approach. It was before the approach. We had to do a quick descent to get down to level out and bleed off speed. Over the IAF we were high. However I chose to level out to slow down more. Once at 210 I put down flaps and at 176kts put down gear then shortly after dumped in more flaps. During the descent we were not in actual. low level clounds as we approached the edge of the lake. We then went in completely level just fast. When I say coming in hot on the runway I don't mean 200kts. As I stated I setup the aircraft for everything in advance. My final is 30% on the torque at 135kts. However when coming in on short final at 150kts as I broke out with runway in sight we were at 20% on the torque. Coming in much faster but with less power and bleeding. Eventually we'd slow down but I underestimated when and as the fellow stated we landed just peftect.

The aircraft never exceeded any limits. Why would you say the aircraft is uncapable or unsafe in a steeper descent? Clear day with low cloud layer starting over the lake after the front that came through. We never went 800agl until we were on the GPS 13 and that was part of the approach. To say to never trust a man you've never met seems pretty harsh. What we did wasn't even close to the dangers of spinning an aircraft or doing stalls or short field landings ect. It was just a more powered back quicker descent. And we did not break any rules or laws. This post wasn't about what happened in that aspect in the aircraft. It was a training exercise. The concern was all the factors that led us to have to do those things.

Would you consider doing stalls or killing engines in flight dangerous and out of the capabilities of that aircraft? Boss hired the testpilot of it to give him his annual checkout for insurance and those are the exact things that were done in it. Just because it was beyond my abilities since I had never done it before says nothing about the abilities and experience of the man next to me. He's a very safe individual. Very professional and the most knowledgable aviator I've met. He gets the respect of many people that come in here. Just because we came in fast for me doesn't mean it was anything unusual for him. To ask me not to trust him yet trust a guy who's flying the regionals and I've never met is asking a whole lot. Once again. As some have skipped over it. While I was trying to figure out what to do he was in complete control. Just like a student learning in a 172 while under the hood I was learning something new in the Merlin. No big deal on that part. It was the clearance and way to meet that clearance I was confused with, he knew what to do, I walked in this morning to tell him I figured it out then he walked me through the process to do it on the 430 then xfer it into the 530 so i don't have to change everything up and lose the most useful screen at that point in time. keep my situational aweness up. he knew what was going on he wanted to see if I could figure out. So no tossing stones, you can't get any of your ratings without being put in unfamiliar situations while having someone in control next to you.

I didn't file it. I just flew it and tried to see if I was up to the task and was doing fine till I got tossed that curveball. Now I'll be looking for a new curveball.

Puppyz

someone once told me it's when you fly with that ''ace of the base'' pilot that you really gotta remember to never let your guard down. I personally wouldn't do anything outside of my own limits no matter who is sitting next to me.

ToiletDuck

Someone's got to teach you. You start from nothing as a preprivate. You have no limits. Like I said it was very exciting for me and I was the one behind the ball. Doesn't mean the guy next to me had any issues what-so-ever. If things would have gotten out of control he would have taken over. All I do all day with my students is let them almost fly off the side of a runway just to take over at the last second and explain what went wrong. You pracitice emerg descents for commercial ect. so what was so dangerous there? It's required to learn how to do. Not to mention to get the high altitude endorsement it's recommended to learn. All I'm hearing now is kneejerk reactions to something being blown out of proportion. Like I said is killing one engine, doing stalls, emerg procedures, spiraling descents, slowflight, steep turns ect. dangerous just because you're in a bigger more powerful aircraft? If not then why would a simple throttle chop and nose over be dangerous? Never exceed any airspeeds and never really went over 1g. Give me a break on the dangerous aspect of what happened.

dhc8fo

ahhh...finally someone else sees what I saw right away.

I don't preptend to be all knowing...I know that I am NOT all knowing (hahaha).

First, you should have asked for a heading to get you started and then asked the gazillion-hour guy next to you how to do it in the Garmin. I guarantee you, if he has a gazillion hours, he probably had no clue. Old guys don't do new technology well in general (not a slam, the truth).

Second, do as someone else said and bust out the manual and FIGURE IT OUT. You are now on a heading and ATC will keep an eye on you until you tell him you are direct to the fix.

Third, the ENTIRE part about your configuration is what troubled me the most. I don't care how experienced the guy next to you is. An approach as f'd up as you described is in no way stabilized and will get you killed sooner or later.

Therein lies my beef.

ToiletDuck

The descent wasn't on the approach. It was leading to it. The approach was high and fast. Worse comes to worse just go missed from that point. He knew how to do it today. I only have the 430 software to play with so today after I couldn't figure out how to load it correctly he walked me out to the plane and showed me. You're right I could have done different things. I was somewhat besides myself when I heard what they wanted me to do and couldn't figure out why so I starting going about it one way which was wrong. I never stated otherwise. If you take a very careful look at the topic of the thread it states "I was confused. could use input" by that I meant on what someone would do in that situation. Sitting down at a desk and hindsight being 20/20 everything suggest seems very logical and I have no idea why I just didn't ask. However the actual flying of the aircraft is no big deal. At no point were we out of control. I watch the T1's fly 20ft apart all day then do descents way crazier than that. Give them a call and let them know they are all knocking on death's door. It's only wrong if it's beyond your abilities. It was beyond mine which was the training reason for it. it might be beyond yours which is why the kneejerk freaked out reactions. However, it wasn't nearly beyond his. So just give that part a rest. Here is a screenshot of a GPS of exactly what was going on. I don't know why the one airport is there. But it shows me heading to DRT then I put in the fix here to show where they were wanting me to turn to. I could have been slightly closer or slightly further away. The border is right there and I was over open desert which is why it was confusing I received it in the first place and was somewhat shocked. Then why they held me up that high for that long was weird to me as well. I've been in and out many times and never received that before. However the other guy said he'd done it a few times. Here's the pic. Doesn't it seem like a waste? I guess I still don't get why they gave it to me.