kamari0

I am looking to possibly submit my application to Envoy but I need a sanity check here. They sound good long term. However, short term they aren't the best.

I am a ATP minimum pilot with no 121 experience, and I need some advice.

Envoy is offering me:
1. $5,000 signing bonus (Two-Year Training Contract)
2. ATP-CTP
3. Flow-through to American Airlines (5.5 Year Estimate)
4. Upgrade time (2.5 Year Estimate)
5. Flight benefits AAG
__________________________________________________ ________

Estimated Income:
Year 1: $23,400 ($26/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 2: $31,500 ($35/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 3: $49,950 ($38/hr -> $73/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Upgrade should happen around 2.5 years
Year 4: $67,500 ($75/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 5: $69,300 ($77/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 6: $70,200 ($79/hr -> $77/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Move to AA around 5.5 years.

Total Income 6 Years: $311,850
__________________________________________________ _________

I understand that that income listed above is in a "perfect world" and that the odds of everything happening as promised most likely will not happen in those exact time frames.

I've looked at many of the other airlines, SkyWest, Endeavor, Mesa and they are currently making slightly more money. However, they aren't "guaranteed" flow-through.

So do I chase the money, or do I take a risk and go for a flow-through program? Which airline would you guys advise your friend to go to and why?

daOldMan

I hope that you enjoy being a First Officer on reserve for at least 3 years, and then at least a year more after you are holding a line.

airlinegypsy

Why not? As far as being on reserve for several years it like the tide may be turning. I'm flying with line holding first officers that are right at the 2 year mark on the CRJ. Sure there are some senior Fo's bidding reserve on purpose but my count only puts it at 5% of current fo's. Add in the latest vacancy bid for another 80+ captains and it seems like things are starting to move.


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TheFly

Impressive research. If you can help it, don't commute, but if you have to, avoid commuting to reserve as best you can. You will have to decide what is more important to you. Money, schedule, driving to work, etc. I was fortunate enough to find an airline that offered all of the above (I did have to commute for the 1st 6 months).

TheFly

Is there a such thing as a guaranteed flow through? Maybe someone can chime in on this.

Da40Pilot

You are going to be on reserve forever, your life is going to suck and while you're on reserve you will be making minimum pay. Any extra flying you pick up on your days off will take a toll on your QOL.

This is the best advice that I can give you:

Go with a regional where you'll be on reserve the least, so that you can start building the 121 SIC asap, and then go with a regional that will let you upgrade as soon as you hit the 1000 hours SIC so that you can start building TPIC asap. There's a few out there.....and yeah, they may not offer flow....but do you really think, with the state of the industry, that any type of "flow" is going to be needed 6 years from now?

Bob Loblaw

#3 - slightly low but not too ridiculously far off, provided they go against their nature and honor the flow as they are supposed to (but haven't been).

#4 - You have a better chance at having an orgy with all of the current Victoria's Secret Angels than a 2.5 year upgrade at envoy.

FlameNSky

Actually, ORD EMJ FO is down to less than 18 months. In less than a year, it went from 4 years to 18 months. Anyone care to guess where that trend will leave RSV time in another year?

But, you know, DaOldMan is a PSA pilot so he is probably a good unbiased source of information about envoy.





Since we are on the subject, Old Man, since the PSA quick upgrade train has left the station and PSA is staffed with a lot of low time Captains and First Officers, it isn't likely that PSA will have much attrition outside of the flow and lateral movers. Given the fact that the last few PSA new hire classes were in the 5 - 7 range, how long do you expect the PSA Reserve time to jump up to? My guess is you think it will get very long or else you were spend so much time trying to tear other companies down.

Systemized

It's possible a portion(or all) of Republic's AA E175s could end up at Envoy in the next couple of years.

PilotJ3

Envoy just posted 87 upgrades. It should be this way for some time, considering 1400 pilots above you will be gone to AA in 3/4 years.

By the end of the year the upgrade should be down to 6/5 yr guys. End of 2017 it should be down to 4 years.

I would say others might have "fast" upgrade, but that is for someone with 1,000 P121. At the end is your call, try not to commute and look at your career for the long haul. Any WO carrier will be better positioned that NonWO in about a year or two.