Am I missing something?
03-07-2016, 10:58 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
Posts: 771
Maybe, maybe not. It's a good thing to have in your back pocket while you go after other legacies or LCCs and that falls through. Until the flow through train stops moving (if/when) it's guaranteed movement for the time being.
03-07-2016, 11:15 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 547
One can only look at the various actions and speculate. For instance, I found it quite interesting that Delta has not petitioned the court to be on the Creditor's Committee. That tells me that Delta is little interest in furthering its relationship with RAH. That tells me that we will very likely see RAH drop Delta flying.
It is also interesting that after years of attempts by envoy's MEC and CEO to institute a bonus program and being turned down by Parker, that all of a sudden, the same week that RAH files BK that AAG is in a big rush to institute bonus programs for current and potential pilots. AAG, as the guarantor of most of RAH "American Eagle" jets, has the first call on assuming the ownership of those aircraft. They could give them to Compass, SkyWest or envoy almost overnight. All anyone can do is speculate but it is interesting that AAG suddenly has become motivated to attract current 121 pilots.
We could argue the advantages of a WO or non WO to the end of time but most businesses like stability and controllability. Given the current and more importantly, the future volatile environment of Regional Airlines, WO have the clear advantage in those regards.
03-07-2016, 11:15 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
I am looking to possibly submit my application to Envoy but I need a sanity check here. They sound good long term. However, short term they aren't the best.
I am a ATP minimum pilot with no 121 experience, and I need some advice.
Envoy is offering me:
1. $5,000 signing bonus (Two-Year Training Contract)
2. ATP-CTP
3. Flow-through to American Airlines (5.5 Year Estimate)
4. Upgrade time (2.5 Year Estimate)
5. Flight benefits AAG
__________________________________________________ ________
Estimated Income:
Year 1: $23,400 ($26/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 2: $31,500 ($35/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 3: $49,950 ($38/hr -> $73/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Upgrade should happen around 2.5 years
Year 4: $67,500 ($75/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 5: $69,300 ($77/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 6: $70,200 ($79/hr -> $77/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Move to AA around 5.5 years.
Total Income 6 Years: $311,850
__________________________________________________ _________
I understand that that income listed above is in a "perfect world" and that the odds of everything happening as promised most likely will not happen in those exact time frames.
I've looked at many of the other airlines, SkyWest, Endeavor, Mesa and they are currently making slightly more money. However, they aren't "guaranteed" flow-through.
So do I chase the money, or do I take a risk and go for a flow-through program? Which airline would you guys advise your friend to go to and why?
I am a ATP minimum pilot with no 121 experience, and I need some advice.
Envoy is offering me:
1. $5,000 signing bonus (Two-Year Training Contract)
2. ATP-CTP
3. Flow-through to American Airlines (5.5 Year Estimate)
4. Upgrade time (2.5 Year Estimate)
5. Flight benefits AAG
__________________________________________________ ________
Estimated Income:
Year 1: $23,400 ($26/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 2: $31,500 ($35/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 3: $49,950 ($38/hr -> $73/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Upgrade should happen around 2.5 years
Year 4: $67,500 ($75/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 5: $69,300 ($77/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 6: $70,200 ($79/hr -> $77/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Move to AA around 5.5 years.
Total Income 6 Years: $311,850
__________________________________________________ _________
I understand that that income listed above is in a "perfect world" and that the odds of everything happening as promised most likely will not happen in those exact time frames.
I've looked at many of the other airlines, SkyWest, Endeavor, Mesa and they are currently making slightly more money. However, they aren't "guaranteed" flow-through.
So do I chase the money, or do I take a risk and go for a flow-through program? Which airline would you guys advise your friend to go to and why?
03-07-2016, 11:23 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,374
Envoy flow is by percentage, at the end of the year 50% of all the AA NH (including PDT and PSA), have to be envoy pilots.
03-07-2016, 11:28 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
I am looking to possibly submit my application to Envoy but I need a sanity check here. They sound good long term. However, short term they aren't the best.
I am a ATP minimum pilot with no 121 experience, and I need some advice.
Envoy is offering me:
1. $5,000 signing bonus (Two-Year Training Contract)
2. ATP-CTP
3. Flow-through to American Airlines (5.5 Year Estimate)
4. Upgrade time (2.5 Year Estimate)
5. Flight benefits AAG
__________________________________________________ ________
Estimated Income:
Year 1: $23,400 ($26/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 2: $31,500 ($35/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 3: $49,950 ($38/hr -> $73/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Upgrade should happen around 2.5 years
Year 4: $67,500 ($75/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 5: $69,300 ($77/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 6: $70,200 ($79/hr -> $77/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Move to AA around 5.5 years.
Total Income 6 Years: $311,850
__________________________________________________ _________
I understand that that income listed above is in a "perfect world" and that the odds of everything happening as promised most likely will not happen in those exact time frames.
I've looked at many of the other airlines, SkyWest, Endeavor, Mesa and they are currently making slightly more money. However, they aren't "guaranteed" flow-through.
So do I chase the money, or do I take a risk and go for a flow-through program? Which airline would you guys advise your friend to go to and why?
I am a ATP minimum pilot with no 121 experience, and I need some advice.
Envoy is offering me:
1. $5,000 signing bonus (Two-Year Training Contract)
2. ATP-CTP
3. Flow-through to American Airlines (5.5 Year Estimate)
4. Upgrade time (2.5 Year Estimate)
5. Flight benefits AAG
__________________________________________________ ________
Estimated Income:
Year 1: $23,400 ($26/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 2: $31,500 ($35/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 3: $49,950 ($38/hr -> $73/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Upgrade should happen around 2.5 years
Year 4: $67,500 ($75/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 5: $69,300 ($77/hr @ 75hrs/mo)
Year 6: $70,200 ($79/hr -> $77/hr @ 75hrs/mo) Move to AA around 5.5 years.
Total Income 6 Years: $311,850
__________________________________________________ _________
I understand that that income listed above is in a "perfect world" and that the odds of everything happening as promised most likely will not happen in those exact time frames.
I've looked at many of the other airlines, SkyWest, Endeavor, Mesa and they are currently making slightly more money. However, they aren't "guaranteed" flow-through.
So do I chase the money, or do I take a risk and go for a flow-through program? Which airline would you guys advise your friend to go to and why?
03-07-2016, 11:33 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,961
We haven't had many new hires on the "flow for after Oct2011 and After DOS", less than 200 guys. Once it gets done with the Protected Pilots, those guys should be gone in about a year or two.
Envoy flow is by percentage, at the end of the year 50% of all the AA NH (including PDT and PSA), have to be envoy pilots.
Envoy flow is by percentage, at the end of the year 50% of all the AA NH (including PDT and PSA), have to be envoy pilots.
It's been a while since I did the research and associated math but IIRC
I believe the flow drops from 50% with X hold backs to 35% with X hold backs then it becomes the lesser of X and 25%
I believe PSA and PDT each get the lesser of X and 25%, which is the same verbiage envoy new hires are under.
PSA's flow is 20 years for a new hire based on math so they're out. That leaves PDT vs Envoy. Based on the size of the pilot group and the Less of X and 25% flow with y opt-outs PDT should flow much faster.
03-07-2016, 11:35 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 118
Actually, ORD EMJ FO is down to less than 18 months. In less than a year, it went from 4 years to 18 months. Anyone care to guess where that trend will leave RSV time in another year?
But, you know, DaOldMan is a PSA pilot so he is probably a good unbiased source of information about envoy.
Since we are on the subject, Old Man, since the PSA quick upgrade train has left the station and PSA is staffed with a lot of low time Captains and First Officers, it isn't likely that PSA will have much attrition outside of the flow and lateral movers. Given the fact that the last few PSA new hire classes were in the 5 - 7 range, how long do you expect the PSA Reserve time to jump up to? My guess is you think it will get very long or else you were spend so much time trying to tear other companies down.
But, you know, DaOldMan is a PSA pilot so he is probably a good unbiased source of information about envoy.
Since we are on the subject, Old Man, since the PSA quick upgrade train has left the station and PSA is staffed with a lot of low time Captains and First Officers, it isn't likely that PSA will have much attrition outside of the flow and lateral movers. Given the fact that the last few PSA new hire classes were in the 5 - 7 range, how long do you expect the PSA Reserve time to jump up to? My guess is you think it will get very long or else you were spend so much time trying to tear other companies down.
Besides of that PSA is not a bad place to be except the pay is sub par.
03-07-2016, 11:36 AM
#20
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 4
Envoy just posted 87 upgrades. It should be this way for some time, considering 1400 pilots above you will be gone to AA in 3/4 years.
By the end of the year the upgrade should be down to 6/5 yr guys. End of 2017 it should be down to 4 years.
I would say others might have "fast" upgrade, but that is for someone with 1,000 P121. At the end is your call, try not to commute and look at your career for the long haul. Any WO carrier will be better positioned that NonWO in about a year or two.
By the end of the year the upgrade should be down to 6/5 yr guys. End of 2017 it should be down to 4 years.
I would say others might have "fast" upgrade, but that is for someone with 1,000 P121. At the end is your call, try not to commute and look at your career for the long haul. Any WO carrier will be better positioned that NonWO in about a year or two.
That was 87 upgrades this month? If so that's 1,044/year that can't be right.
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