eaglefly

I've been called a half dozen other names over the years and "outed" before. You've run out of valid rebuttal (actually, you never had one in the first place), so this is all that's left.

* Apologies to non Envoy salesmen as clearly the EST has unleashed a full-court press to bombard me with attack and I always seek to respond to those who post to me specifically. This is too many consecutive posts for even me under normal circumstances.

eaglefly

I've stated my argument clearly (and repeatedly) and if you miss it or refuse to acknowledge it, that's your choice and your issue. The first post was quite clear. I reiterated to another I see no problem with increasing pay (who would ?), but specifically TARGETING other carriers pilots in a pilot shortage is not only not honorable, it may lead to very bad situation for all, including Envoy.

In that past, when another carrier targeted Envoy's pilots indirectly by undercutting you, I was critical of that. Now, what may that lead to ?

Envoy, now upping the ante and specifically targeting other carriers pilots by pay provisions to lure them away from their carrier specifically to Envoy. If you don't see the problem with that and the potentially disasterous future consequences (which obviously you don't), then there's little left I can explain to you.

Clearly, we've run our course snip, so perhaps it's time to move on, yes ?

snippercr

Forgive my feeble little brain when I need to ask for clarification and expansion on your clearly unpopular opinion. I honestly thought you were trying to go for something - that's why I put all trolling aside and actually tried to engage you in conversation.

There is one thing to be a troll - RJ Pilot was that. You have some more ability than just back handed "Good Luck!" type comments but you do not engage in thoughtful discussion.

I tried.

Good luck!

PapaMike

I'm pretty sure it's been said in this thread a number of times that the Envoy MEC is tossing around the idea you expressed in the original post. Doesn't appear anyone is actually denying it.

Then there are numerous other individuals from all sorts of carriers that are in opposition to you and come up with logical well thought out rebuttals to which you reply with the same incoherent rant about the salesmen of Envoy.

The root of the issue is you're upset that Envoy is going to "poach" other 121 carriers by giving them an unfair advantage over non-121 pilots. Are you upset that this hurts military guys? Flight instructors? Astronauts? NO, you're upset because it hurts other regional airlines by leaving them short because they are unable to pay as much as Envoy is offering.

There is no difference between this offer and offering American Airlines pay rates to fly at Envoy. Offering the AA rates will help out the instructors and astronauts as well but it will still "poach" from other 121 carriers as they don't offer the pay to compete. But, you said that is OK for some reason. Why is it OK for Envoy to offer 6 figure salaries to get experienced pilots but not for them to offer money directly for their experience? Either way the other carriers who can't compete will falter and be unable to attract new pilots ultimately resulting in their closure.

At least the pilots at those faltering airlines will have a place to hang their hat with the pay they already were used to getting, thus no large impact to their ability to take care of themselves and their families.

eaglefly

Pure, horse****. Look how warped you mind has become ? You rationalize selling Envoy based on empty projections and hypotheticals and are critical of those who question that. Nuts.

Most of you couldn't care less about making Envoy better for pilots who will be there years after you've flowed. You're interested in getting YOURSELF to AA and you need Envoy to be viable and robust enough for just that long. Your claims of altruism are pure crap and you know it. You're looking out for #1 and rationalizing that because YOU feel you've been screwed by other regionals undercutting you, been screwed by your clumsy MEC who played hardball only to collapse like sobbing schoolgirls and by your management who has gutted you contract at will while you stand by helpless.

I am just a convenient punching bag because I highlight these realities and you feel that is impeding your ejection from Envoy. Make Envoy a better place ? God, again if anyone wants to see what some of these characters truly think, go over to EL and listen to them in all their glory.

Wow, finally an admission of your true state of thinking. See, you DO think time is a factor and you just admitted (whither you think you did or not) that getting away from the 'bomb" is at the forefront of your concerns. Doesn't it sound silly to claim you are trying to make something better you consider a bomb ?

Bomb's never get better, they just explode. That's why they are bombs and claiming you want to make something you consider a bomb BETTER is ridiculous. But then again, we both know you couldn't care less what happens to Envoy once you leave, nor for anyone still there when you do.

eaglefly

I tried to. I beat that explanation pretty good. I know most of you will never listen, but a few might and if a few understand, my efforts were not in vain.

My condolences in advance and good luck to you.

PapaMike

Take a deep breath and try to explain this again because I didn't see any well thought out explanations so far. You are vehemently against this so maybe there is actually something I am missing or you just aren't clearly expressing it the right way.

More pay at one carrier to drive out the carriers who will never pay is a bad thing is what you are saying.

You keep saying it comes to poaching but that logic is flawed since any improvement to a regional airline contract would still attract other regional airline pilots. Tomorrow Great Lakes offers $250,000 contracts. Good or bad?

In a way this deal at Envoy would help to make other airlines more viable. If I go to Skywest and work for a year and just don't like it I can to to Envoy and maintain my pay and hope for a carrier that fits my life better. It gives incentive to NOT go to Envoy since you can just go there whenever you want.

eaglefly

No, you misunderstand me. If another carrier had done this, I'd be just as critical as it is the concept of what "poaching" can start and that affects ALL present and future regional pilots regardless of where they may come from. It negatively impacts the regional profession. I know many are simply too blind to consider all the ramifications or simply have no interest in doing so and if you leave this segment of the industry soon, no harm, no foul because you've got yours. But..........should something unforeseen occur and you end up at the regional level far longer then you had hoped, you'll be lying a bed you wish you hadn't made.

It's your future..................good luck. Sounds like you'll need it.

Again......*sigh*.....salaries are one thing, but methodologies that target other carriers pilots are not. Hey, with that logic and mentality why do you have a union anyway and in many cases, the SAME union (ALPA) ? One ALPA carriers MEC targets another and you call that GOOD ?

Man, I'll never understand the present generation of regional pilots. You guys have a bleak future embracing and rationalizing cannibalism and hopefully yours won't become one of the casualties. If this possible scheme backfires and Envoy becomes the casualty of its own making (just like last time when the MEC fumbled their own drive), you can be sure the same salesmen here will be the ones crying the loudest blaming others for their demise (and almost certainly me, as if one guy on a forum with an opinion could sink an airline , which they already insinuate).

They will ?

Their captains, both senior and junior will be given either their old captains pay for their new reserve F/O slot at the bottom of someone else's list or lateral street captains slot at airline X ?

Man, you're not thinking this through. There will be winners and losers in both pilots and airlines and you'll be in Vegas at the whim of the house.

eaglefly

I'm not upset, so no deep breath needed. It is YOU with everything to lose. Slowly read all my posts and try to digest my points. In fact, I'm not going to explain it anymore, but simply wait for a good show to watch. Should that show start, trust me..............then we will have PLENTY to discuss.

PapaMike

So, it's just that you don't believe the company will hire former Captains because the cost is too high and they will be left out in the cold. Hence losers.

But wouldn't those same Captains making $100,000+ be left in a bad spot even if the starting pay were $50,000 at Envoy? Let's go with 50k to start and 10k raises every single year. It would take 5 years to get back to where you were and an additional 5 years to recoup your losses(not counting inflation).

Even this hypothetical contract would poach other 121 pilots and lead to at least one other regional going out of business.