snippercr

Just so I understand your argument - you are against a program where a pilot can go to an airline and bring credit with them for higher pay because that will create a "poaching war" where by the airline offering said program would poach pilots from other airlines. These other airlines would still have pilots there that would not want to leave but due to the spike in attrition, that airline would face loss of flying it cannot staff, shrink and ultimately stagnate the pilots there (no upgrade, no getting off reserve).

Couldn't the same be said about bonuses? Doesn't just about every airline right now offer a 5-15k signing bonus with Endeavor having a 20k/year retention bonus? These programs are designed to attract people to their airline - as you said, there isn't much of a pipeline of new pilots. Why were/are you not vocal about these programs?

Do you see the industry as being a better place if Envoy did NOT offer a program where by a pilot could bring part 121 credit for starting at a higher pay step?

WesternSkies

I have forgotten already but didn't envoy pass a contract that the pilots felt forced into?
What what was the end result again?

Nevets

Please, if my regional closes its doors tomorrow, I'll buy a ticket and fly home. I have absolute faith that I'll land on my feet and my family will not starve. No one flying for a regional will become destitute of their airline closes. We are all college affected, intelligent, motivated individuals. And some of us even have a back up plan.

Envoy offering better pay for other regionals' pilots is not the end of the world. In fact, I welcome it wholeheartedly! I want all airlines competing against other airlines for pilot services. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever letting the better run, more nimble and innovative airlines surviving or thriving while regionals like mine wither on the vine. Maybe that competition will force other regionals to compensate their pilots more as well. I rather have that than the alternative of not too long ago of MECs agreeing to concessions for fleet growth and then another MEC doing it and then another MEC doing it and then the next MEC feeling like they have no choice but to do the same.

I honestly feel you need to step back and really think about what you are saying. Anytime companies are willing to pay more, the better. Prospective employees choose with their feet. And there is nothing wrong with that.


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adspilot

You sound like my ex-wife! She would never shut up and was always complaining.

With that said, this is the only industry where your pay does not transfer when you move jobs. The one thing that I hate about this industry is that if Neil Armstrong got hired on by Envoy he would have to get payed 20K per year. Am I the only one who thinks that is crazy? Companies offering incentives to come work for them is a good thing. I don't see any down side to this?

eaglefly

Yes. You know what ?

That has ALREADY occurred. Can you guess what airline has recently lost pilots to the point that they have been threatened with attrition (3000+ down to about 2100) and their union is now considering a scheme to REVERSE that which has occurred to them and shift that to OTHER carriers to PREVENT EXACTLY THAT IN THE FUTURE ?

Hint; Don't look too far.

Are these programs aimed at just attracting pilots in general or do they TARGET pilots at other regionals they know cannot be replaced thereby creating winners and losers and winning at the expense of others ?

Don't look now snip, but you're rationalizing again.

I see the regional industry in peril and I see the unions involved becoming part of the problem and I see many of the pilots oblivious to past history and mistakes all too willing to repeat them. Reading posts like yours, it's all but certain you'll fly yourselves right up a canyon you can't climb out of. In all honesty, as an AA pilot it's in my best interests to see a strong AA regional network, including Envoy (within scope limits, of course), but I have little confidence with so many water mules and salesmen running around only interested in keeping their "crappy regional" as I hear the term so often afloat just long enough to get theirs. We ALL lose with that attitude and always will.

If you come to AA by 2020, I think you'll get to see that concept again when Parker plays the majority of us again like a tenor sax and we trade whatever we can for Delta rates. Problem is, we don't have much to trade except............well, now you know my predictions for 2020 and why I will end up joining the majority and regretfully become a salesmen too just like I state below my handle here !

Hope you're not too junior then as you'll be the minority compared to 11-12,000 geezers in their late 50's and 60's. Maybe then you'll finally understand the disease ravishing this profession when you almost certainly become one of the losers in that game should you win in this one. Like I said, sooner or later........the house ALWAYS wins.

Crawl

Eaglefly, you are admitting that the number of "new" pilots entering the regional arena is limited, and the only place regional airlines will be able to hire pilots from is other regionals... So essentially a "survival of the fittest" existence is an inevitability. Some regionals will not survive, regardless of whether Envoy implements this or not, correct? All this measure does is make Envoy more attractive, sustainable, and better able to compete with other regionals, and they would be ahead of the curve if indeed this trend catches on. So I ask you, specifically, how is this a bad thing?

eaglefly

Perhaps her "*****ing" was mostly correct and it was you who was the principle problem in that relationship ?

Naahhh..................nothing could ever be your fault, yes ?


OK, I'll bite. Have your union negotiate special deals for astronauts, but what good does that do for plain vanilla civilian CFI's with minimal experience who have barely mastered getting a Seminole back to the flight school ramp without damage ?

Perhaps $20K/year is too much for them ? In fact, let's scrap contracts altogether and let qualifications and merit be the litmus for upgrades and flow-thru's.

At least your management could argue that.

You're going in the right direction for management, but the wrong one for pilots in the long run.

snippercr

So I THINK I am starting to get where you are coming from - you say the credit for 121 agreement would specifically target already employed pilots versus say ALL pilots (prior 121, 1500 hour CFIs, military, ex corp, etc)? Because it is intentionally targeting pilots with 121 experience, it thus intends to draw said part 121 pilot. As a result, that part 121 pilot - who is working for an airline, is going from one airline to another based on the ability to carry over pay credit. Is that correct thinking?

You oppose this plan because it sets up an inherent "pilot war" because by its very nature, it's goal is to draw 121 pilots and thus pull a pilot from one airline to another.

You mentioned pilots becoming oblivious to past mistakes. Which ones are you referring to? If you flowed over to AA you clearly have been at this longer than I have. Maybe I wasn't around for them?

Also, if you think this type of plan (credit for 121 experience) is the wrong direction for unions, briefly, what do you think would be a better option?

eaglefly

Correct. BUT, how can you be sure that Envoy will be a winner in 2 years despite what it may look like now ? OK, this scheme takes place, Envoy pilots like yourself (I assume) proclaim this good for the industry and certainly good for Envoy as you rationalize "others will fail anyway", but then, Delta and United act to protect their feed and then the only significant poaching that occurs is within AAG regionals and thus AAG begins to rob itself. Considering both situations, Envoy's scheme fails to meet its goal and then Envoy begins to contract again (still loaded with hundreds of $120,000/year captains) and AAG makes a new move considering this "change in the landscape" and you become a loser.

I'm sure you'll not mind then if some of the other carriers pilots tell you, "well, it was inevitable someone had to lose........and it sucks. Sorry to hear that". No big deal, yes ?

This post is exactly what I described in a few posts back as far as my belief of what Envoy ALPA may try to sell Envoy management. It does so at the EXPENSE of other airlines, actually at the potential expense for again, if others act to protect be it their unions, managements, legacy contractors or all three, this plan fails and Envoy likely converts itself BACK to loser status within 12-18 months.

I think you've been listening to too many salesmen, but hey it's your destiny. Like Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky ?".

Crawl

Ok, let's try this. What if Envoy and union agreed to pay all FOs a flat salary of 50,000 and captains 90,000. And then FOs from other regionals came to Envoy en masse to benefit from the pay increase they would experience. You ok with that?