eaglefly

Sure, if all regionals implemented that concurrently, but that is NOT the point of this initiative. The point is to get other pilots to Envoy NOW BEFORE they can act, otherwise what would be the point ?

Look, everyone knows (or should) that the street pilots for the regionals simply doesn't exist in any meaningful numbers and so the only thing to do is get pilots that already exist. Problem is that whomever relinquishes pilots will not get them replaced by street pilots and so that means these carriers will contract. The equation now is one of a shrinking overall pilot base and the ONLY equation for the future is SHIFTING of that shrinking base. That means some will win and others will lose. One noteworthy Envoy water mule is known to say "pilots are the new currency" (he didn't make that up though, just parrots it) and while that is true, the valuation of that currency is a shrinking base. Airlines cannot print pilots like the US Government does Federal Reserve Notes (dollars). So, the question is who will be the winners and who will be the losers ?

If say for example, AAG decides to agree to a universal flow-thru for all pilots at their wholly-owneds and pilots from non AAG WO's (any other regional) come flocking, that means some of those carriers won't make it. There simply is no one to replace them from the street as if there were, poaching schemes wouldn't be necessary. Those left behind like the captains waiting for a major to call or those planning on a career there are now hitched to a dying carrier (which is what Envoy ALPA is trying to thwart if they pursue poaching) who cannot meet its goals, it's stock price tumbles and like RAH is on the brink.

They get to start over or head for another career path.

Once that fire is lit and some carriers become the "go to" carriers, it means hundreds if not thousands of present regional pilots WILL become the LOSERS. Unless there are sufficient street-hires to keep THEIR engine running, they become casualties in a pilot war. There ARE NOT street pilots to prevent an "everyone wins" ideal. So, are you ready to step up to the Roulette wheel and bet on Black or Red ?

Only one color pays off, they both do not. Also, what may be the winning color in 2016, may become the loser again in 2017 and what do you do then...........jump yet again to what LOOKS to be a winning color at that time ?

This will lead to a very unstable and precarious existence as each carrier then morphs itself perhaps repeatedly and frequently in the ever uncertain game of trying to survive as throngs of three-striped lemmings migrate left and right on the faintest whim of avoiding a cliff. The four-striped lemmings won't chance it and will fly or crash where they are cursing this existence if its the latter. Be careful for what you wish for and think it through before selecting a color. Personally, I think those interested in setting up this segment of the industry to look like a Las Vegas casino are seriously myopic and short-sided. I could say that it sure would be fun to watch though as yet another generation of airline pilots destroys themselves in new ways just like past generations with scope and RJ's.

But, if you must, you must and quite frankly, I think it's in our nature to act against ourselves, but I digress...........

If this casino gets set up, all I can say is good luck at the table, but remember............the house eventually always wins.

eaglefly

Ask them why then in the past they wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new-hires only ?

This is the same thing only rationalized with a different wrapper. In fact though, it's potential for destruction is FAR worse then the former ideal which only hurt the pilots AT the carrier for the most part.

The "carrot" is still in use, only now that carrot comes from someone else's garden and what happens to that garden should it become decimated as a result ?

Let's hope YOU don't end up a resident of one of those gardens in the future.

Bob Loblaw

Very well said. This is the first step to creating job portability. As I understand it, the proposal is for carrying over years of service for pay only, not for bidding or upgrade. Hopefully other carriers follow suite, so it helps to increase total QOL and pay within the regional industry.

The RLA severely enhances management's position by severely limiting labor's ability to fight. If we had the ability to move to a different company without starting completely over, it would help level the playing field by making it much easier to say "f--- off management" whenever they try to not negotiate fairly (like in RAH's current case over the last 8 years) or shut down bases causing one to uproot their lives (like in Envoys case of going from 7 bases to 2). Because of this, I doubt upper level AAG management will go for the scheme despite what the Envoy men in the middle want.

Envoy Envious

We wouldn't negotiate pay raises for new hires only because there were 3000 other pilots on the seniority list that would need a raise as well.

Think about it, how does it go against the contract when offering a potential 4 year RAH FO a 4 year Envoy rate? He's at the bottom of the list. It doesn't make any difference as he still has to climb the seniority ladder as the rest of us did!

I'm not saying that this isn't under consideration, it is. There are just a lot of variables that need to be looked at before proceeding.

eaglefly

"Portability" might be a great idea depending on the details, but for it to work for ALL pilots, there cannot be any "losers" per se in the equation. As long as there are virtually no replacement pilots available, that means there WILL be losers and some MAJOR losers. TRUE portability would mean lateral moves for any pilot including seniority. Without that and coupled with no replacements, it becomes not only roulette, but Russian roulette.

I think Envoy ALPA wants to sell this concept on the fact they can be first and thus become the powerhouse BEFORE other carriers realize they're screwed and act too late. Of course, what if Delta and UAL DO see the threat act very quickly (let's face it, Delta is shrewd and smart) and then what ?

Envoy's ALPA possible pyramid scheme foundation of poaching fails and it is Envoy that goes back to contraction and despair. I think THAT is the sales pitch. It seems everyone is selling now at Envoy, I guess even to each other now.

eaglefly

So Envoy ALPA will tie mandatory raises for present pilots to this poaching scheme ? OK, good for Envoy pilots, but doesn't help the rest of the industry who may suffer and that's everyone who WOULDN'T then go to Envoy. Good luck with Parker on that one though.

A furloughed RAH pilot, I could understand, but otherwise it seeks to enrich Envoy at the expense of other pilots who WOULDN'T go to Envoy by weakening their carriers due to the inability to replace those who leave. Let's call a spade a spade.

Think about it.

Of course it is, but it is dangerous ground IMO. Of course, airline pilots are known for their contractual stupidity and so I would expect nothing less.

Nevets

Look, the market dictates that airlines need to compete for pilots. I don't have a problem with that. If my regional goes out of business, oh well. I have a plan B and feel bad for those who don't (but should've). I only have a problem with an MEC agreeing to concessions in direct exchange for a fleet commitment. That's just my opinion and it happens to be different than yours. Why do you even care anyway? Is not the West's supposed trifecta more of a concern to your current situation?


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Bob Loblaw

I said it was a first step. Currently, there are few pilots in the pipeline due to the crap pay and QOL at the regionals not making the high cost of earning all needed ratings worth while. Traditionally, if you weren't a military pilot, the majority of pilots gain experience trying to get that major airline job at the regionals. If job portability would come to fruition at the regional airlines, it would also bolster greater pay and QOL overall. This in turn might help some to choose the piloting profession again. It by no means could ever be an overnight scenario, it's a long play, but it is certainly better than being stuck at an unstable company in an unstable industry with no hope of improvements and hope it doesn't blow up in your face. Without a doubt, there is going to be contraction in the regional sector, and as such, there will be casualties as some carriers cannot survive. At least you won't be the "MAJOR loser" if you do not have to start over from square one again.

eaglefly

I have a lot of concerns and don't limit myself to what others think I should or shouldn't be concerned about. It's nice to hear you say you'll accept getting the shaft in a pilot poaching war, but I suspect if you were truly facing the gun barrel at 45 or so with kids in college or planning on it, etc. you'd reveal quite an about face. Almost all pilots do despite claims otherwise previously.

Again, if I were truly a sadist, I'd LOVE to watch such a horror show and giggle at the sobbing posts of those who lose as their bad luck reveals itself, but that's for the disturbed. I simply keep trying to bang at least a few skulls in the new generation of hapless pilots that seem hell bent on screwing themselves like past generations did in new and unusual ways, but the louder I speak, the deeper many seem to plug their ears.

Perhaps it's destiny for yet another group of pilots to cling to the promises guaranteed to them only to have them be broken for any number of reasons or advocate pushing others down the stairs to avoid or at least cushion their own fall and my efforts will be in vain, but at least I have a clear conscience that I tried.

eaglefly

I don't see this type of instability making the regionals MORE attractive to potential pilots in high school or college. Remember, even if the man behind the curtain could fix ALL the regionals problems instantly tomorrow, it will take YEARS to reseed the pipeline to previous levels and that's at TOGA thrust.

In 5 years (with quick and decisive ACTION BY THE industry) maybe, but until then, perhaps half the present cadre would be in the "loser" camp in a full blown pilot poaching war, but more likely once Envoy were to start this, surely others would act, especially Delta and United and ultimately, it might even hasten or ensure Envoy's demise as their hail mary pass was knocked away. It just MAY be the one unintended byproduct of such a scheme and that too is among the risks to be weighed.

That is simply ANOTHER reason why I think anyone going to Envoy now is taking a risk. Envoy IMO, remains far too unstable itself and as I refer to them as a "house of cards", their future seems all bent on timing, promises and prayers.

That's not a sound place to be IMO. for future success. Caveat Emptor.