Undermining the profession yet again ?
09-14-2015, 09:50 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 674
I'd suggest learning from the past and not proposing schemes to strengthen yourself at the expense or downfall of others, but when have you ever agreed or even listened to anything I've said ?
In fact, considering that, why are you even talking to me ?
Shouldn't you be on the other threads selling Envoy or better yet.........go back to sleep.
In fact, considering that, why are you even talking to me ?
Shouldn't you be on the other threads selling Envoy or better yet.........go back to sleep.
09-14-2015, 09:59 AM
#12
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
For whom ?
If this occurs and you're too invested in another carrier to join a theoretical conga line to Utopia, then I'd suggest your union get together with their management and cook up whatever deal is necessary to prevent Envoy ALPA or anyone else from breaking your back, because your career may be a serious risk in the future if an 'every pilot for himself' reality breaks out in the regional industry as pilot poaching schemes ultimately are......or you could watch that show and cross your fingers you don't take a fatal wound because you acted too late to effectively protect yourself.
If you're from Envoy.................well, it sounds like there may be nothing left to do if this scheme occurs except hope it works long enough to get you to wherever you want to get to, but of course, THAT is the whole point of such a scheme for those who may be considering it.
If this occurs and you're too invested in another carrier to join a theoretical conga line to Utopia, then I'd suggest your union get together with their management and cook up whatever deal is necessary to prevent Envoy ALPA or anyone else from breaking your back, because your career may be a serious risk in the future if an 'every pilot for himself' reality breaks out in the regional industry as pilot poaching schemes ultimately are......or you could watch that show and cross your fingers you don't take a fatal wound because you acted too late to effectively protect yourself.
If you're from Envoy.................well, it sounds like there may be nothing left to do if this scheme occurs except hope it works long enough to get you to wherever you want to get to, but of course, THAT is the whole point of such a scheme for those who may be considering it.
09-14-2015, 10:33 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ?
09-14-2015, 10:45 AM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
Just a messenger here, but word has it that Envoy ALPA is considering proposing a new scheme to poach pilots from other regionals by negotiating a contractual provision that allows pilots to come to Envoy at their former regional's pay rate (present pay) ?
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies.
Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ?
If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there.
This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because;
- It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea.
- It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable.
Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others.
If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within.
Discuss.
Apparently, the concern is because that without sufficient new-hires, Envoy is projected to contract again by next summer resulting in stagnation and downgrades and so it appears another union leadership of arguably questionable ethical standards IMO, may be willing to undermine the regional industry as a whole even further for its own interests by adopting contractual provisions that strengthen their carrier by weakening other carriers. Everyone is under pressure because of the increasingly ominous regional pilot shortage and it would appear now that individual union leaderships may now be willing adopt 'us and them' (AKA "survival of the fittest") cannibal philosophies.
Will Envoy ALPA fire the first shot through the hull in the regional pilot industries own boat, thereby beginning the sinking of the ship ?
If so, it would appear the rats are now poised to eat each other for survival and this latest possibility is but another example of the complete collapse of regional pilot future and effective unionism. The word at Envoy is that hunger among many pilots there is increasing to near ravenous proportions and they will green light any pilot cannibalism scheme there.
This self-centered low-ball move is a bad idea because;
- It weakens the industry as a whole by weakening others, many of whose pilots may become unemployed and collateral damage because they are at high enough pay scales that either won't be offered at Envoy under such a possible scheme or are in positions (captains) that cannot be obtained under lateral poaching schemes like this one may be. For every POSSIBLE winner (but no guarantee of payoff) that goes to Envoy, there will be several LOSERS left in the wreckage at the regionals that may fail or contract because of adoption of any new tactics by Envoy ALPA or any other carrier's pilots union such as this. Those carriers pilots may see downgrades and contraction themselves if not outright failure by such an appalling idea.
- It undermines Envoy's OWN CBA and PRESENT pilots as it is no different then negotiating pay raises for new-hires (to solve managements self-induced staffing problems), but NOT for present pilots, which ironically is a concept rejected by most unions and even Envoy ALPA in the past. You cannot rationalize this scheme or give it a different title or name and claim it is indeed honorable.
Although the probable goal is to prop up Envoy and hopefully correct its apparently present "house of cards" existence, pilots from any other regional would be welcomed, but one pilot mentioned PSA as a desirable target of this new 'pilot-attacking-pilot' idea. This target of course, would be bad for AAG as it extracts the upside for one of its in-house regionals at the expense of another. For AAG, robbing peter to pay paul will not work, it only shifts the problem requiring even more short-term expensive adjustments in the future. It's truly tragic that the regional pilot profession has apparently sunk to levels like this and in the long run, it is bad for the profession. It's sadder that union leaderships in their zeal to save themselves will consider anything and everything regardless of the damage to others or the profession. It's even still sadder the zest that is evident by various union water-carriers for management who have lost themselves so drastically, that they would promote such lunacy and even convince (successfully in many cases) other pilots to adopt an internal pilot attack philosophy to ensure they survive at the expense of others.
If such a scheme comes to fruition, it could unleash an all-out internal war by various union leaderships who then feel they have no alternative to protect their turf and the process of more draconian poaching consideration develops resulting in a true 'divide and conquer' reality for the regional pilot industry only one from within.
Discuss.
I'll let you in on a secret. This pilot shortage may give ALPA the opportunity to do just that.
09-14-2015, 10:45 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,533
You Envoy salesmen are widely known for playing the "troll" card inappropriately when your product is questioned. I'll ask again........are you saying my post regarding what Envoy ALPA may be considering is NOT true ?
If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ?
If it IS true and it leads to a 'pilot war' between regional carriers, how is that a GOOD thing, at least for those NOT at the top of the Envoy pilot pyramid ?
09-14-2015, 10:48 AM
#17
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Hey eaglefly,
Lay all the cards out on the table. Tell everyone here how you flowed to AA with no interview, and until that happened you sat at Eagle fat, dumb, and happy for years.
Why, oh why in all those years did you never leave the Regionals? Why did you never get hired at Delta, or United, or Us Air, or Northwest, or Southwest, or Air Tran, or anywhere??
Was it because you never applied? Hmmm.....
Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired?
Hmmm.....
Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry.
Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual.
Lay all the cards out on the table. Tell everyone here how you flowed to AA with no interview, and until that happened you sat at Eagle fat, dumb, and happy for years.
Why, oh why in all those years did you never leave the Regionals? Why did you never get hired at Delta, or United, or Us Air, or Northwest, or Southwest, or Air Tran, or anywhere??
Was it because you never applied? Hmmm.....
Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired?
Hmmm.....
Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry.
Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual.
09-14-2015, 11:02 AM
#18
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
If it's such a shameful thing, why are you busting a nut to become JUST LIKE ME ?
Why, oh why in all those years did you never leave the Regionals? Why did you never get hired at Delta, or United, or Us Air, or Northwest, or Southwest, or Air Tran, or anywhere??
Wast because you never applied/ Hmmm....
Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired?
Hmmm.....
Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry.
Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual.
Wast because you never applied/ Hmmm....
Or was it because you did apply and just couldn't get hired?
Hmmm.....
Which one is worse? Either way...the only reason you are even at any mainline right now is because you came to Eagle, flowed to AA WITH NO INTERVIEW, and now all of a sudden you think you are the Ben Affleck of the airline industry.
Give us a break, wash out. Go work on your garden or stalk the flight attendants in D terminal as usual.
) aside from being irrelevant. We both know you haven't the faintest idea of my past and since you have no valid rebuttal of my comments all that's left to do now is throw mud in the hope it annoys the target.Hey kid, I can do this all day long if you so choose, at least until it bores me. When you have something of substance to discuss or refute, let me know and I'll take it under advisement. Sorry, but your debating skills suck.
09-14-2015, 11:05 AM
#19
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Still waiting for one of the Envoy salesmen to correct the errors in my first post. So far, only attempts to hijack this thread away from the topic which...........well, is likely the point. When you can't hide, you run.
09-14-2015, 11:05 AM
#20
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Where you been, babe ? Everyone and his cousin knows about my flow-thru status. Nothing to be ashamed of and totally irrelevant, but it does pose a question.
If it's such a shameful thing, why are you busting a nut to become JUST LIKE ME ?
Perhaps the stupidest question in the history of this forum (but not surprising considering the source) aside from being irrelevant. We both know you haven't the faintest idea of my past and since you have no valid rebuttal of my comments all that's left to do now is throw mud in the hope it annoys the target.
Hey kid, I can do this all day long if you so choose, at least until it bores me. When you have something of substance to discuss or refute, let me know and I'll take it under advisement. Sorry, but your debating skills suck.
If it's such a shameful thing, why are you busting a nut to become JUST LIKE ME ?
Perhaps the stupidest question in the history of this forum (but not surprising considering the source
) aside from being irrelevant. We both know you haven't the faintest idea of my past and since you have no valid rebuttal of my comments all that's left to do now is throw mud in the hope it annoys the target.Hey kid, I can do this all day long if you so choose, at least until it bores me. When you have something of substance to discuss or refute, let me know and I'll take it under advisement. Sorry, but your debating skills suck.
Answer the question: In all those years at the Regional level, why did you never leave? I mean, it's not like you were a Regional pilot for a short time. It approached almost two decades.
So answer the question, hot shot: Did you never apply to anywhere else? Or did you apply and just couldn't get hired?
Which one was it? Because it's one of the two. You're tactic of trying to deflect this issue until somebody gives up is hilarious.
But you won't get off that easy, sweetheart. If you are going to swing your johnson around the Regional forum as much as you do you need to pony up and take responsibility for yourself.
So answer the question.
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