Undermining the profession yet again ?
09-16-2015, 06:47 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,097
Are you high???
People make lateral moves every day for a number of different reasons. Many more would do so if they didn't have to start over at year one pay. Then there are the instances when pilots have no choice because their airline folded. Ask anybody who worked for Comair. Or go back even further and talk to pilots from Eastern, Pan American, Braniff, and the list goes on.
And finally, this as with most other things in life has a specific target. A demographic if you will. That target demographic is First Officers. Yes, we get it. You are an uber rich Captain who would never grace anybody with his presence. This isn't for you, ace.
The more you post the more clear it becomes you have some chip on your shoulder in regards to Eagle/AA...you should get together with eaglefly. On the other hand, if you pull your head out of your rear for two seconds you would realize how this works and what the idea is. It would remove the golden handcuffs that all airline pilots are subjected to. If Envoy sets this in motion there is a good chance that other airlines would follow. Maybe not overnight, but soon enough.
Oh, and what's the deal with all these demands you have for coming over? Nobody is asking you to come to Envoy! These Donald Trump moments of yours are priceless:
And this one:
*FACEPALM*
People make lateral moves every day for a number of different reasons. Many more would do so if they didn't have to start over at year one pay. Then there are the instances when pilots have no choice because their airline folded. Ask anybody who worked for Comair. Or go back even further and talk to pilots from Eastern, Pan American, Braniff, and the list goes on.
And finally, this as with most other things in life has a specific target. A demographic if you will. That target demographic is First Officers. Yes, we get it. You are an uber rich Captain who would never grace anybody with his presence. This isn't for you, ace.
The more you post the more clear it becomes you have some chip on your shoulder in regards to Eagle/AA...you should get together with eaglefly. On the other hand, if you pull your head out of your rear for two seconds you would realize how this works and what the idea is. It would remove the golden handcuffs that all airline pilots are subjected to. If Envoy sets this in motion there is a good chance that other airlines would follow. Maybe not overnight, but soon enough.
Oh, and what's the deal with all these demands you have for coming over? Nobody is asking you to come to Envoy! These Donald Trump moments of yours are priceless:
And this one:
*FACEPALM*
09-16-2015, 06:55 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 140
I think the goal is to get all the flying back at the majors.
There will be winners and loosers, that's life.
Regional airlines will fail.
The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.
Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.
Stop being such a sissy.
There will be winners and loosers, that's life.
Regional airlines will fail.
The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.
Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.
Stop being such a sissy.
09-16-2015, 07:01 AM
#133
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
I have no chip on my shoulder about American (I'd rather go there more than Delta or United) Just that this isn't doing much if it's asking me to give up seniority and be a bottom FO on reserve and not actually match what I am paid now. All but bottom FO's that have been stuck at a stagnant place are not getting anything unless they live in DFW or ORD and currently have to commute. I don't see this really undermining the industry, but I also don't see it creating a flood of applications either.
09-16-2015, 07:27 AM
#135
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Sounds like a great idea to me. Hopefully it works and it forces my airline to do something more dramatic to attract pilots (maybe better work rules or higher pay). Then envoy can do something else and it goes on and on. Let management whipsaw each other for a change and guess who wins in the end?
I LOVE to watch a good game of cutthroat.
09-16-2015, 07:30 AM
#136
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I think the goal is to get all the flying back at the majors.
There will be winners and loosers, that's life.
Regional airlines will fail.
The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.
Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.
Stop being such a sissy.
There will be winners and loosers, that's life.
Regional airlines will fail.
The quicker this happens the better. If we can help collapse one of the crappiest regionals who has been dragging out contract negotiation for a decade and who's CEO is the leading the cause to repeal FTDT, this is a win.
Helping Pilots not having to start over from scratch in today's market allows this to lesson the impact on our brethren. No pilot will be greatly adversely affected. Keep in mind there are currently direct entry captain jobs, and we will hopefully get a deal that will pay FOs what they are currently making.
Stop being such a sissy.
Looking forward to the show.
09-16-2015, 07:32 AM
#137
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
You might want to rethink the flood of applications. While not technically a "flood," the Envoy Chicago job fair was wildly successful, beyond even the most optimistic person's expectations. You'll be hearing about more of these soon as well as other more good news for Envoy.
Hey.........you know what, this is kinda fun. It does seem like there are suckers out there so if I help, can I get paid too ?
09-16-2015, 07:33 AM
#138
sippin' dat koolaid
Joined APC: Jun 2013
Position: gear slinger
Posts: 982
The fact of the matter is that this is simply a proposal from the MEC to the company. Nothing official has been released yet, and I doubt language has even been crafted. The truth is that this will NEVER be approved by AAG. We just spent two years being beat down by Jerry Glass and Dougwiser over a few dollars a block hour. When the union tried to get Endeavor-style bonuses to retain experienced F/O's, Envoy management including Pedro were all for it...and AAG management quickly made it clear it would never happen. "Why should we?" they said. "You have flow to AA! That's all you need to attract new hires!" The ONLY thing AAG cares about is who is the lowest bidder. Paying new-hire pilots anything other than first year pay after sinking 30k into them for training goes against everything we have learned about the "new American" since the hostile takeover. AAG has zero incentive to do this, because the last thing they want is for pilots to think their experience is a valuable commodity.
Personally, I think undermining seniority is wrong. With that being said, what SHOULD happen is ALPA pushing a national seniority list at ALL the ALPA carriers, but we saw their true colors when they willingly approved PSA's back-stabbing of Envoy.
Eaglefly/Thrustlever/Lord Hummugus can ***** all he wants about certain members of our MEC apparently trying to screw other regionals for Envoy's gain, and I might even agree with him to some extent, but the original sin STILL resides with the APA for allowing ANY flying to be done outside their list. They allowed this regional model to exist through their greed. Once the camel was in the tent, they spent decades and countless negociating capital to reclaim scope and mostly failed. The reason the regionals are failing now is because management became far too greedy for the regional business model to succeed. By the time they understand what they've done, the regionals will be dead.
Labor portability is what we truly need in this industry to force airline management to deal with supply and demand once again and raise pilot salaries across the board. This proposal might be a step in the right direction despite the short term pain, but it won't happen at AAG. What's more likely is that within 5-10 years, the regionals simply won't exist anymore.
Personally, I think undermining seniority is wrong. With that being said, what SHOULD happen is ALPA pushing a national seniority list at ALL the ALPA carriers, but we saw their true colors when they willingly approved PSA's back-stabbing of Envoy.
Eaglefly/Thrustlever/Lord Hummugus can ***** all he wants about certain members of our MEC apparently trying to screw other regionals for Envoy's gain, and I might even agree with him to some extent, but the original sin STILL resides with the APA for allowing ANY flying to be done outside their list. They allowed this regional model to exist through their greed. Once the camel was in the tent, they spent decades and countless negociating capital to reclaim scope and mostly failed. The reason the regionals are failing now is because management became far too greedy for the regional business model to succeed. By the time they understand what they've done, the regionals will be dead.
Labor portability is what we truly need in this industry to force airline management to deal with supply and demand once again and raise pilot salaries across the board. This proposal might be a step in the right direction despite the short term pain, but it won't happen at AAG. What's more likely is that within 5-10 years, the regionals simply won't exist anymore.
09-16-2015, 09:17 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: Violin on the Envoy-tanic
Posts: 175
I'm not arguing against "portability" per se, but pilot groups specifically targeting OTHER pilot groups to gain at their expense. If street hires were available, this scheme would be neither necessary nor proposed, but we no WHY it is. It IS, because Envoy ALPA is worried they'll be a loser without it and they are willing to prevent that even if they must create other losers in the process of trying to win.
...and THIS is where "unionism" is now at in this segment of the industry ?
It's become nothing more then a rotted house filled with rats of various sizes all feeding on each other (or planning to) and it's become quite pathetic.
...and THIS is where "unionism" is now at in this segment of the industry ?
It's become nothing more then a rotted house filled with rats of various sizes all feeding on each other (or planning to) and it's become quite pathetic.
09-16-2015, 02:28 PM
#140
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Sounds like the Asian regional/major airline situation coming to American soon to a city near you?
18yrs+ ago, they were hiring 300-400hr commercial multi pilots at Garuda airlines I trained.
Ooops, engine failed, feather and pull power on "good" engine...crash/burn.
No unions involved, but people are being sold the "Dream", which I got out of 18yrs ago due to this same type of nonsense at regionals.
Little pay, crappy bases, shady equipment/tagged pressurization for a week in a plane, flying at 10k feet in FL in hot summer because they won't repair the thing...terrible flight scheduling operations/management, including chief pilot. OH, and the same old song/dance of people looking to get out of dodge/commuter and get to the Majors, like that is some great situation itself??? Shortsighted. So, little pay for regionals, because training people costs them money?!?! Duh....with turn over, and running up hours of training/fuel/check rides, massive turnover...and trying to make a buck, well, your pay will suck big time people. Nothing has changed in 20yrs!!!
And of course ALPA to the rescue sucking up funds from all the pilots, and never doing a damn thing but their own self interests, or interests of those that best feed their pockets.
W....T....F.....else is new in this industry? Nothing!!! Humorous how this is all a repeat performance and mantra from nearly 2 decades past. PILOT shortage...hey, again? Wow, didn't know for nearly 20yrs there is a pilot shortage, did that ever get filled or stop? Yes, when the economy took a downturn and people weren't flying as much. But turn the economy around, and people fly and oh no!!! Pilot shortage again!
Glad I'm not in the business anymore, don't envy any of my friends and their "family" lives they have lead and pain/suffering and broke for 15yrs before it finally starts to pays $$$ to support a family. But still quality of life issues exist. Always will.
Amazing how more things change, they stay the same in the industry.
I do miss the actual flying part of that life though. But the "industry", commuters, and unions destroyed what enthusiasm I had to stick it out...and glad I didn't. What a cluster f*&k the industry still is.
I know guys like myself that quit the business, stuck with it and now at the majors, and some at rental/NetJet type places. The guys all flying talk the same nonsense and crap from 20yrs ago you guys are *****ing about on the forum to this day. Must be a thing to vent frustration to others in your predicament. Misery loves company.
Good luck guys...continue onward on your quest for airline perfection, that doesn't exist and never will BTW.
Get out, or quit whining and live with it until you retire. No other choices.
That last sentence could have been my entire post actually...sorry for the other ranting...haha...
18yrs+ ago, they were hiring 300-400hr commercial multi pilots at Garuda airlines I trained.
Ooops, engine failed, feather and pull power on "good" engine...crash/burn.
No unions involved, but people are being sold the "Dream", which I got out of 18yrs ago due to this same type of nonsense at regionals.
Little pay, crappy bases, shady equipment/tagged pressurization for a week in a plane, flying at 10k feet in FL in hot summer because they won't repair the thing...terrible flight scheduling operations/management, including chief pilot. OH, and the same old song/dance of people looking to get out of dodge/commuter and get to the Majors, like that is some great situation itself??? Shortsighted. So, little pay for regionals, because training people costs them money?!?! Duh....with turn over, and running up hours of training/fuel/check rides, massive turnover...and trying to make a buck, well, your pay will suck big time people. Nothing has changed in 20yrs!!!
And of course ALPA to the rescue sucking up funds from all the pilots, and never doing a damn thing but their own self interests, or interests of those that best feed their pockets.
W....T....F.....else is new in this industry? Nothing!!! Humorous how this is all a repeat performance and mantra from nearly 2 decades past. PILOT shortage...hey, again? Wow, didn't know for nearly 20yrs there is a pilot shortage, did that ever get filled or stop? Yes, when the economy took a downturn and people weren't flying as much. But turn the economy around, and people fly and oh no!!! Pilot shortage again!
Glad I'm not in the business anymore, don't envy any of my friends and their "family" lives they have lead and pain/suffering and broke for 15yrs before it finally starts to pays $$$ to support a family. But still quality of life issues exist. Always will.
Amazing how more things change, they stay the same in the industry.
I do miss the actual flying part of that life though. But the "industry", commuters, and unions destroyed what enthusiasm I had to stick it out...and glad I didn't. What a cluster f*&k the industry still is.
I know guys like myself that quit the business, stuck with it and now at the majors, and some at rental/NetJet type places. The guys all flying talk the same nonsense and crap from 20yrs ago you guys are *****ing about on the forum to this day. Must be a thing to vent frustration to others in your predicament. Misery loves company.
Good luck guys...continue onward on your quest for airline perfection, that doesn't exist and never will BTW.
Get out, or quit whining and live with it until you retire. No other choices.
That last sentence could have been my entire post actually...sorry for the other ranting...haha...
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